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Drug testing for welfare recipients suffers setback

So the question is why is it ok to drug test anyone?

Because if an individual is taking compensation from another group of people, those people have the right to attach certain conditions to be satisfied prior to releasing the compensation. This goes for both welfare recipients and tax payers as well as employees and employers.

It is one of the reasons that conservatives tend to say that as government grows, the individual's rights decrease.
 
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Because if an individual is taking compensation from another group of people, those people have the right to attach certain conditions to be satisfied prior to releasing the compensation. This goes for both welfare recipients and tax payers as well as employees and employers.

It is one of the reasons that conservatives tend to say that as government grows, the individual's rights decrease.

So conservatives insist on these rights-infringing conditions, and then say, "See! I told you that government infringes on your rights!" :roll:
 
So conservatives insist on these rights-infringing conditions, and then say, "See! I told you that government infringes on your rights!" :roll:

Government assistance is not a right. It is the compassionate thing to do. We, meaning citizens, are subject to all kinds of freedom or right infringing actions we have to accept because of the criminal actions of others. Otherwise we would be powerless against criminal actions. If everyone behaved themselves and were honest and respectful for what they have we wouldn't be talking about this now.
 
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I already did,but here you go again. The cost of a drug test is above $50. There are 140 million on some form of public assistance or another. So the math is simple. Billions. That's with only one test per year.

POM - Drug Testing

Not that I support this, but i'm not sure why you would have to test everyone every year. You just have to do a random sampling.
 
So conservatives insist on these rights-infringing conditions, and then say, "See! I told you that government infringes on your rights!" :roll:

I guess if this was the only example of a growing government infringing on rights, you would have a point. However, as I hope you realize, it isn't.

And it really isn't "right infringing" to say if you want "A" you have to do "B". The individual that wants "A" has every right to not do "B" and forgo the receipt of "A"
 
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Not that I support this, but i'm not sure why you would have to test everyone every year. You just have to do a random sampling.

Well if we even test just half it is still billions.
 
Well if we even test just half it is still billions.

In other words, just make up a percentage to test and a dollar amount per test and claim victory. Got it. A quick search on the net found lower cost drug testing then you indicated. Also, I suspect that the governemnt could negotiate for even lower costs. It might even make sense for them to just do it in house, I am not an expert on drug testing, so couldn't tell you.
 
I guess if this was the only example of a growing government infringing on rights, you would have a point. However, as I hope you realize, it isn't.

And it really isn't "right infringing" to say if you want "A" you have to do "B". The individual that wants "A" has every right to not do "B" and forgo the receipt of "A"

According to a federal judge in Florida, it is an infringement of the 4th Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.
 
In other words, just make up a percentage to test and a dollar amount per test and claim victory. Got it. A quick search on the net found lower cost drug testing then you indicated. Also, I suspect that the governemnt could negotiate for even lower costs. It might even make sense for them to just do it in house, I am not an expert on drug testing, so couldn't tell you.

Post what you found. But those cheap drug testing strips have a high false positive and false negative %, and are easy to beat. I also don't think that they will be able to negotiate a much lower price. It will cost billions.
 
Post what you found. But those cheap drug testing strips have a high false positive and false negative %, and are easy to beat. I also don't think that they will be able to negotiate a much lower price. It will cost billions.

It was a company offering the test for $35.00. Again, it was just a quick search and the first result that popped up.
 
It was a company offering the test for $35.00. Again, it was just a quick search and the first result that popped up.

Well let's see the company. Are they national and reputable? We can't know if you won't say who they are. Even at $35 its billions.
 
Hey, I'll do it for $10 a sample.

Since no one wants to hear that the test was positive, I'll just toss the samples and send a letter saying that the test was negative.

I'll make a mint and keep everyone happy.
 
Well let's see the company. Are they national and reputable? We can't know if you won't say who they are. Even at $35 its billions.

I know. Decrease the cost of the test and decrease the percentage of people tested and guess what... Magically still billions.

Anyway, do a search. Yahoo drug testing costs. It's really not complicated.

Edit:

I did another search and found one even cheaper $25.00 vs $35.00 based on volume. Rather flies in the face of your claim that the government can't negotiate a lower price, no?

OHS, Inc. is a national company with drug testing clients in all 50 states, and we charge from a low of $25 per drug test to a high of $65. The "volume" of testing done by the client annually is the primary variable which applies. As with my competitors, a substantially lower per-test price is offered to a company doing 5,000 to10,000 or more tests annually than to a company doing only 500-1,000 drug tests...or only 5-10 tests each year. Our cost for "specimen collection" at the clinic we must use nearby the client's location(s) also impacts the price (up or down) we ultimately charge. Those costs (the specimen collection, alone) vary around the country from as little as $7 to as much as $35, although the national average is about $16.
 
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The it cost too much argument is bogus to me. How many grant dollars do we give to colleges to teach parrots how to talk, monkeys how to sign language, to study ant colonies etc?

Clearly the government has the money, it's about priorities. If you want to get an entitlement check every month that comes from citizens taxes you should have to take a drug test to prove you are not blowing it on drugs. These are benefits are a privilege not a right. If that's too hard there is a simple solution, don't collect a check from the government.

The cost certainly hasn't prevented those of us in the military from getting drug tested multiple times per year.
 
The it cost too much argument is bogus to me. How many grant dollars do we give to colleges to teach parrots how to talk, monkeys how to sign language, to study ant colonies etc?

Clearly the government has the money, it's about priorities. If you want to get an entitlement check every month that comes from citizens taxes you should have to take a drug test to prove you are not blowing it on drugs. These are benefits are a privilege not a right. If that's too hard there is a simple solution, don't collect a check from the government.

The cost certainly hasn't prevented those of us in the military from getting drug tested multiple times per year.

And what are we prepared to do about the children of these positive testers? You can't cut them off from these programs because mom smokes pot. So. Are we going to take their children away? Where shall we put them? How much will that cost? Although, if someone tests positive for heroine, as an example, then we really should be taking away their children. I think this is one problem nobody wants to touch...
 
I know. Decrease the cost of the test and decrease the percentage of people tested and guess what... Magically still billions.

Anyway, do a search. Yahoo drug testing costs. It's really not complicated.

Edit:

I did another search and found one even cheaper $25.00 vs $35.00 based on volume. Rather flies in the face of your claim that the government can't negotiate a lower price, no?

So they just separate cost if test and cost of collection. So 25 for the test plus up to 35 for collection. Bait and switch. Still billions.
 
And what are we prepared to do about the children of these positive testers? You can't cut them off from these programs because mom smokes pot. So. Are we going to take their children away? Where shall we put them? How much will that cost? Although, if someone tests positive for heroine, as an example, then we really should be taking away their children. I think this is one problem nobody wants to touch...

I will agree that without answering these questions, testing is pointless.
 
So they just separate cost if test and cost of collection. So 25 for the test plus up to 35 for collection. Bait and switch. Still billions.

Not quite what they said.

They indicated that their charges are primarily based on the number of tests per year. Another, smaller factor to their charge is how much the collection site charges. So, the cost for a test - this includes the collection - can be anywhere from $25.00 to $65.00 depending on how many tests are done/year. I would assume the government would be in the $25.00 range based on the number of tests. I also assume the government could probably negotiate that down further based on volume. lastly, you are assuming that the governemnt is paying. If I recall correctly, in FL, the cost of the test was expected to come out of the benefits.
 
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Because if an individual is taking compensation from another group of people, those people have the right to attach certain conditions to be satisfied prior to releasing the compensation. This goes for both welfare recipients and tax payers as well as employees and employers.

It is one of the reasons that conservatives tend to say that as government grows, the individual's rights decrease.
Drug testing as a condition of receiving compensation being justified, opens doors for other conditions. Until conditional requirements make it difficult for the actual people that need a small push to recover from a situation are unable to receive any help. It is obvious that the push to drug test welfare reciepants is based on the idea that drug testing will remove drug users from the system. It is a way of regulating who can and who cannot receive aid. But it is a broad regulation that ignores the simple concept of liberty. The rule assumes guilt of everyone. I would be more willing to support drug testing of people that have been convicted of being involved with drugs in some shape of form.

But in the end I just see as you said just more government control. And I also see it ass wasting more money in a system that already wastes money.

In New Mexico if you receive TANF (cash assistance) you may only receive it for 60 months in a lifetime. Or you can apply for a one time lump sum. If you receive TANF and/or food assistance you are automatically enrolled in a program called New Mexico Works. This program requires you to apply for employment but first you must attend life skills classes. You may also receive training. But either way you are required to apply for work a certain number of applications must be filled out and turned in every week. You are also required to give a certain amount of hours of being employed (20-40 hours I dont remember the actual amount). And if you are unable to find a job you must volunteer at a charity of your choice. That charity must be approved by NMW and you must get signatures Etc. If you do not comply then you loose TANF foodstamps Etc. for a certain amount of time you are banned from the system.

I know some pretty lazy people that cannot meet the requirements of New Mexico Works. And they were banned. I also know some people that quite the program and just got a job since it was easier. I dont know what requirements other states have but at least here you dont get easy money. And most jobs UA these days so I would imagine that a dirty UA is going to be addressed by your case worker at some point anyways.

I am support making assistance available but design that system as an aid to become a viable member of society. If you need assistance make it conditional on the recipient working for that assistance. And if they dont comply ban then from the system and require them to jump through hurdles if they want to be unbanned.

I just think that drug testing alone wont really achieve anything. SOme people will simply stop using drugs while receiving assistance. Thats great but if they are still just as lazy the drug test did not achieve anything of worth.
 
Not quite what they said.

They indicated that their charges are primarily based on the number of tests per year. Another, smaller factor to their charge is how much the collection site charges. So, the cost for a test - this includes the collection - can be anywhere from $25.00 to $65.00 depending on how many tests are done/year. I would assume the government would be in the $25.00 range based on the number of tests. I also assume the government could probably negotiate that down further based on volume. lastly, you are assuming that the governemnt is paying. If I recall correctly, in FL, the cost of the test was expected to come out of the benefits.

So the price isn't 25 but depends. From 25 to 65. The average will fall in the middle. So the average price will be around 40. That is billions and doesn't even test half the pool.
 
And what are we prepared to do about the children of these positive testers? You can't cut them off from these programs because mom smokes pot. So. Are we going to take their children away? Where shall we put them? How much will that cost? Although, if someone tests positive for heroine, as an example, then we really should be taking away their children. I think this is one problem nobody wants to touch...

These are things that need to be addressed. Rather than just giving a little bit of money and food to our country's poor, we need to be helping them become self sufficient. Getting them off of and keeping them off of drugs is a positive step but it isnt going to solve all of our problems. While drug testing and other programs would cost us money don't pretend that it would really be the biggest waste of money out there.
 
So the price isn't 25 but depends. From 25 to 65. The average will fall in the middle. So the average price will be around 40. That is billions and doesn't even test half the pool.

The average price is meaningless. The government would obviously have a lot of tests per year and would qualify for the lowest rates, most likely in the $25.00 range. The $65.00 rate / test was for companies that only get 5-10 tests per year.
 
In New Mexico if you receive TANF (cash assistance) you may only receive it for 60 months in a lifetime. Or you can apply for a one time lump sum. If you receive TANF and/or food assistance you are automatically enrolled in a program called New Mexico Works. This program requires you to apply for employment but first you must attend life skills classes. You may also receive training. But either way you are required to apply for work a certain number of applications must be filled out and turned in every week. You are also required to give a certain amount of hours of being employed (20-40 hours I dont remember the actual amount). And if you are unable to find a job you must volunteer at a charity of your choice. That charity must be approved by NMW and you must get signatures Etc. If you do not comply then you loose TANF foodstamps Etc. for a certain amount of time you are banned from the system.

On the surface I like that idea much more then drug testing. I wonder how it really works in practice. In Illinois, I used to help out at a homeless shelter, and the homeless had it down to a science in order to get around (not actually do) the requirements the state had and would still receive the benefits.
 
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