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NAVY SEALS night-time raid

cpwill said:
no. they are only defending themselves. If George Bush hadn't lied us into war, Somali Pirates would be peaceful and lay down their arms. If we were to withdraw from the Middle East, they would all get along.
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Somali pirates don't see themselves as the bad guys. A pirate interviewed by the New York Times said: "We don't consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits those who illegally fish in our seas and dump waste in our seas and carry weapons in our seas. We are simply patrolling our seas. Think of us like a coast guard." The article continues -- "Somalia's central government imploded in 1991, casting the country into chaos. With no patrols along the shoreline, Somalia's tuna-rich waters were soon plundered by commercial fishing fleets from around the world. Somali fishermen armed themselves and turned into vigilantes by confronting illegal fishing boats and demanding that they pay a tax".

Somali Pirates
 
MoSurveyor said:
And what did the South Africans do to them? Don't remember hearing about any South African troops in the Middle East.
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South Africa has worked with the United States, and has a distinctly evil history of racism. Your defense of George Bush makes you racist and only provides further evidence that we can dramatically slash the Defense Budget with no negative consequences.
 
Serenity said:
Nice work by the Seals. There is no doubt in my mind that the two aid workers who were rescued knew the risks involved before they undertook their assignment. Whilst they will be obviously very grateful for their freedom they would not have believed it to be their "right" or expected the US to automatically come to their rescue.
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Okay, I'm breaking character. That is utterly incorrect - if you are a US citizen it doesn't matter where you are. the US Government is your servant and works for you, not the other way around. That's important. We sort of fought a war over it, back in the late 18th Century.
 
cpwill said:
Okay, I'm breaking character. That is utterly incorrect - if you are a US citizen it doesn't matter where you are. the US Government is your servant and works for you, not the other way around. That's important. We sort of fought a war over it, back in the late 18th Century.
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Wait...this is YOU breaking character? While the woman's actions were noble indeed, she knew the risks. Somalia is a lawless failed state, and if a Westerner ever sets foot there there's more than a good chance that **** will go down.

Now I'm not saying that the SEALs should have left her ass with those pirates, but you have no more of a right to expect a rescue from a dangerous situation that partially resulted from your questionable decisions than you have the right to receive a welfare check from the gov't.
 
Andalublue said:
There don't seem to be too many posts praising the President's outstanding leadership in ordering this action. Well done to the Navy Seals indeed! But congrats to President Obama too. After the Black Hawk Down incident the decision had to take cojones.
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Because it was an exceedingly stupid action for us to undertake. While I praise the SEALS for mission accomplished, missions do not get more politically narcistic. We freed two people. In return, all remaining hostages will now have it much worse, will be closer to facing execution, etc. Whenever we have attempted such rescues, the aftermath made it far worse for those that remained. See the Son Tay raid as an example. Our POW's in N. Vietnam were treated far worse after that.

I am not against rescues, but to conduct one to release two is a terrible trade-off. This was just more stupid Obama.

The place to put the pressure on is the pirates at sea. We can drop drone bombs on suspected Talibam in Pakistan, cause all kinds of extra damage, and its all OK. But God forbid we get rough with the pirates before they actually have hostages.

Obama. What a grandstanding dumbass.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Wait...this is YOU breaking character? While the woman's actions were noble indeed, she knew the risks. Somalia is a lawless failed state, and if a Westerner ever sets foot there there's more than a good chance that **** will go down.

Now I'm not saying that the SEALs should have left her ass with those pirates, but you have no more of a right to expect a rescue from a dangerous situation that partially resulted from your questionable decisions than you have the right to receive a welfare check from the gov't.
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Couldn't agree more. I also don't understand why this particular woman was targeted and not others. Christian missionaries are murdered and kidnapped everyday in places like that. Don't see any daring rescues for them. I don't fault the SEALs for that, they are just executing orders. They're a tool, not a decision maker. Anyway, I don't understand why these aid workers and volunteers don't stay here and volunteer in the US. I guess it isn't sexy enough. Can't really claim to be a "crusader for the downtrodden" if you are only going up the road to the local soup kitchen. Not cool enough to serve Americans.
 
MarineTpartier said:
Couldn't agree more. I also don't understand why this particular woman was targeted and not others. Christian missionaries are murdered and kidnapped everyday in places like that. Don't see any daring rescues for them. I don't fault the SEALs for that, they are just executing orders. They're a tool, not a decision maker. Anyway, I don't understand why these aid workers and volunteers don't stay here and volunteer in the US. I guess it isn't sexy enough. Can't really claim to be a "crusader for the downtrodden" if you are only going up the road to the local soup kitchen. Not cool enough to serve Americans.
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I can understand that to a degree. Even the poorest of the poorest in America are probably well-off compared to people in Somalia, who are experiencing chronic poverty, sometimes starvation, and getting their limbs blown off by landmines.

But you can't really expect to make a real difference in a place like that if you don't have at least some friggin' backup. Preferably with guns.
 
cpwill said:
South Africa has worked with the United States, and has a distinctly evil history of racism.
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Then most of the world, including many Middle East and African countries, are screwed, too, because they have "worked with" the United States. Pretty gives them justification for raping anyone they want.

cpwill said:
Your defense of George Bush makes you racist and only provides further evidence that we can dramatically slash the Defense Budget with no negative consequences.
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ME defending Georgy Porgy & Co?!?!?!?!? That's deserves a five-star satule! :lamo :lamo :lamo :lamo :lamo
 
MoSurveyor said:
Then most of the world, including many Middle East and African countries, are screwed, too, because they have "worked with" the United States. Pretty gives them justification for raping anyone they want.

ME defending Georgy Porgy & Co?!?!?!?!? That's deserves a five-star satule! :lamo :lamo :lamo :lamo :lamo
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I realize you're new here, but bro you gotta learn to recognize sarcasm.
 
MoSurveyor said:
Then most of the world, including many Middle East and African countries, are screwed, too, because they have "worked with" the United States. Pretty gives them justification for raping anyone they want.

ME defending Georgy Porgy & Co?!?!?!?!? That's deserves a five-star satule! :lamo :lamo :lamo :lamo :lamo
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Wow, I thought you were doing the double agent thing and countering his sarcasm with your own. I now realize that you have no clue that he has been messing with you the whole time. Can we get a moderator here to ban this guy for lack of sarcasm meter? That's a legit ban right?
 
Andalublue said:
There don't seem to be too many posts praising the President's outstanding leadership in ordering this action. Well done to the Navy Seals indeed! But congrats to President Obama too. After the Black Hawk Down incident the decision had to take cojones.
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Yeah, that was great planning. Them being over there fit right in with his State of the Union message so he could put in a plug about his "awesome" leadership. With that said, who exactly were these 2 people that they warranted a rescue by Navy Seals? Does America owe Denmark something? I know I could go over there, get captured, and be one of the forgotten Americans. I wouldn't even get a seeing eye dog to come to my rescue. I think both these people had to have links to the CIA and had information that the USA could use, hence the rescue.
 
StillBallin75 said:
lol...yes, yes he was. For about three straight posts.
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Yep - he got me! :doh :doh :doh
I should have guessed after that last post, though. Okinawa + reduce defence: non sequitur!

Thanks to all for noting I'm new. I'll catch on in time. :)
 
bicycleman said:
Yeah, that was great planning. Them being over there fit right in with his State of the Union message so he could put in a plug about his "awesome" leadership. With that said, who exactly were these 2 people that they warranted a rescue by Navy Seals? Does America owe Denmark something? I know I could go over there, get captured, and be one of the forgotten Americans. I wouldn't even get a seeing eye dog to come to my rescue. I think both these people had to have links to the CIA and had information that the USA could use, hence the rescue.
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I don't even give them that much credit. These were just two folks who were easy to snatch. It was a poltical stunt first and foremost. We rescued two, while making things infinitely more difficult for other current and future hostages in Somalia. The Somali's will surely improve their own security with other hostages, to include harsher treatment, moving them around more, and being better prepared to kill them.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
I don't even give them that much credit. These were just two folks who were easy to snatch. It was a poltical stunt first and foremost. We rescued two, while making things infinitely more difficult for other current and future hostages in Somalia. The Somali's will surely improve their own security with other hostages, to include harsher treatment, moving them around more, and being better prepared to kill them.
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You've said this multiple times, but I don't really understand how you came to this conclusion.

Perhaps pirates think twice in the future before they decide to take American hostages in the first place given what's happened here and with Captain Richard Phillips a few years back.

Improved security? Perhaps. Harsher treatment and being better prepared to kill them? I don't necessarily think that's the case. At the end of the day these guys want money - treating your bargaining chips like garbage isn't necessarily the best way to achieve that end.
 
StillBallin75 said:
You've said this multiple times, but I don't really understand how you came to this conclusion.

Perhaps pirates think twice in the future before they decide to take American hostages in the first place given what's happened here and with Captain Richard Phillips a few years back.

Improved security? Perhaps. Harsher treatment and being better prepared to kill them? I don't necessarily think that's the case. At the end of the day these guys want money - treating your bargaining chips like garbage isn't necessarily the best way to achieve that end.
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I am going first by historical precedent. The Son Tay raid as an example. Among other sources, John McCain describes in his book how treatment for them became harsher after that failed raid.

The fact is that the Somalis will make changes so as to reduce the likelihood of a mission such as this succeeding again. That means things get worse for the hostages. This is not analogous to what happened with Richards, where we essentially prevented the pirates from securing the hostages.

Its a consideration that I have not seen others raise. It was the first thing that came to my mind, in part because I was Special Ops for a good part of my term. A mission to get just two seems not worth the downside, IMMHO.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
I am going first by historical precedent. The Son Tay raid as an example. Among other sources, John McCain describes in his book how treatment for them became harsher after that failed raid.

The fact is that the Somalis will make changes so as to reduce the likelihood of a mission such as this succeeding again. That means things get worse for the hostages. This is not analogous to what happened with Richards, where we essentially prevented the pirates from securing the hostages.

Its a consideration that I have not seen others raise. It was the first thing that came to my mind, in part because I was Special Ops for a good part of my term. A mission to get just two seems not worth the downside, IMMHO.
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i think you're giving Somali pirates way too much credit.
 
Dittohead not! said:
i think you're giving Somali pirates way too much credit.
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They ain't rocket scientists, but this ain't rocket science. As we have seen with more sophisiticated hostage takers, they take measures to reduce the invitation of a successful rescue.

We have certainly just upped the ante. They will as well.

The Current Status of Somali Piracy

According to a recent BBC report, Somali pirates seized a record 1,181 hostages in 2010, and were paid many millions of dollars in ransom.
In the Fall of 2011, more than 300 hundred people were being held hostage by various pirate groups based in Somalia.

http://goafrica.about.com/od/africanews/a/pirates.htm
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I am assuming there are a few hundred there still. Am sure things have changed for them in these last couple of days.
 
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Eighty Deuce said:
They ain't rocket scientists, but this ain't rocket science. As we have seen with more sophisiticated hostage takers, they take measures to reduce the invitation of a successful rescue.

We have certainly just upped the ante. They will as well.
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We have upped the ante, no doubt. Should we have just kept the status quo, maybe paid a ransom or just let them kill the hostages? What might the result of that have been?
 
Dittohead not! said:
We have upped the ante, no doubt. Should we have just kept the status quo, maybe paid a ransom or just let them kill the hostages? What might the result of that have been?
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No easy answer. To my knowledge, they are not killing hostages yet. As I noted earlier, we need to go after the pirate strongholds, and boats, that we have identified as being a part of the hostage takers. Just as we bomb the Taliban in Pakistan and Yemen, for instance.

Nor am I against rescue missions. But to engage in a mini-mission to get just two is, in my appreciation of these things, a tactical and political win, but a strategic loss.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
No easy answer. To my knowledge, they are not killing hostages yet. As I noted earlier, we need to go after the pirate strongholds, and boats, that we have identified as being a part of the hostage takers. Just as we bomb the Taliban in Pakistan and Yemen, for instance.

Nor am I against rescue missions. But to engage in a mini-mission to get just two is, in my appreciation of these things, a tactical and political win, but a strategic loss.
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Maybe if we were to blow a few pirate vessels out of the water, they'd go back to working internet scams or something.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Maybe if we were to blow a few pirate vessels out of the water, they'd go back to working internet scams or something.
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I don't think Somalia was ever much of a center for that, as Nigeria has been.

Somalia is just such a mess. Hostage taking will continue, if for no other reason than do-gooders such as these two who were rescued will continue to put themselves out there as targets. I am in the group that does not see the risk of our SEALS as being worth such as this.
 
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