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Thread: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    it's too inefficient. What you need to make is a machine which scans everyone and automatically reports to the authorities if they find anything "suspicious".
    The question is whether or not the TSA is even meeting that standard.

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    The question is whether or not the TSA is even meeting that standard.
    Essentially they are, and they will try to go in my direction of automated scanning of everyone once tech becomes available. Though it will be expensive. Those millimeter wave radiation scanners are expensive. BTW, we still don't know biologically the full extent of exposure to millimeter wave radiation. Preliminary experiments show that it's rather good at unzipping DNA.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Cuba is the other side of the coin. It's complete government control. Perchance having my 4th amendment rights violated by TSA does not make us that close to Cuba; but it does mark unjust government force. What we had before was reasonable enough, it does not require the level of force and regulation now levied against us. Whatever small increase in security we may have achieved with TSA was not worth the price paid.

    I ask you to go to Cuba to see what the other side is like, see what complete government control will do. For if you do not resist the usurpation of power and the use of force against our rights; we will eventually realize the death of the Republic. Freedom and liberty are what is most important, the very basis of this Republic. I hate to see it thrown away because of emotional and irrational individuals scared that the sky is falling.
    This sounds like a slippery slope argument. It reminds of when people say, "If we let the gays get married, then soon, we'll be letting people get married to animals". In my experience, most people in the United States value their freedom. They get pissed when the government restricts where they can protest, they get pissed when the government restricts their gun use and so on. People are very much aware of what government control at the level of places like Cuba entails. Not having a problem with TSA security in a specific venue does not suggest, in any sense, that people need to go to Cuba to understand what 'the other side' is like and to stand up for their rights when they feel that they are being usurped.

    What we have here is a disagreement on what 'reasonable' in the 4th amendment means. I think most people in the United States would agree that many actions by the Cuban government go far past 'reasonable'. However, it is entirely understandable that people would have different interpretations of reasonable when it comes to airport security.

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Correlation cannot prove causation, which was my point.
    I know it can't. I never said it could.

    Maybe TSA had an effect, maybe not. But eventually we will have another terrorist attack That's another point. It's not to say that TSA couldn't be successful, but rather that terrorist attacks will happen eventually. If we freak out each time, we will lose more freedom each time. Instead we may take reasonable actions to protect ourselves from terrorist attack, but we should also understand that they will occur.
    I think the TSA's actions are reasonable. I'm just no buying your slippery slope argument.

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Search in general can be reasonable, such as the searches we had before. The degree to which we have gone under TSA is unreasonable.
    I disagree. I think it's pretty reasonable.

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    This sounds like a slippery slope argument. It reminds of when people say, "If we let the gays get married, then soon, we'll be letting people get married to animals". In my experience, most people in the United States value their freedom. They get pissed when the government restricts where they can protest, they get pissed when the government restricts their gun use and so on. People are very much aware of what government control at the level of places like Cuba entails. Not having a problem with TSA security in a specific venue does not suggest, in any sense, that people need to go to Cuba to understand what 'the other side' is like and to stand up for their rights when they feel that they are being usurped.
    Not so much slippery slope as measured history. We've seen the course of government time and time again; particularly government which grows outside the bounds of the People. There is no history of same sex marriage the likes there is the natural course of government.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    What we have here is a disagreement on what 'reasonable' in the 4th amendment means. I think most people in the United States would agree that many actions by the Cuban government go far past 'reasonable'. However, it is entirely understandable that people would have different interpretations of reasonable when it comes to airport security.
    Perchance, but there is still an absolute. And I fear that we've lost our will to fight for it. Rather so long as our tomorrow can be the same as today, we'll allow government to do anything; including its gross expansion and exercised force against us. TSA goes too far on a lot of the regulation and searches. There was no need for another government agency after 9/11. We had a system already in place and it could have sufficed; TSA was unnecessary.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    How is it more reasonable than searching every 10th person in the inner city? It's a very reasonable assumption that a good portion of them would get caught with either, drugs or an illegal weapon. (this is, if Paul is right)
    Searching every '10th person' in the inner city would require the government to establish checkpoints in every single 'inner city' in the country. It would require people to get to the city 5 hours in advance and it would effect considerably more people on a daily basis than any security check in an airport world. It would likely result in a severe decrease in business, destruction of the housing market and many other problematic consequences. The comparison is false.

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I disagree. I think it's pretty reasonable.
    Given the low probability of terrorist attack and the aggressiveness of TSA searches; it is not reasonable. Perhaps if terrorist attacks happened once every 9-12 months. But on average its a decade or so.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They beauty of America is that our politicians are no one special. All can be replaced. There are reasonable actions to take that are within the confines of the Constitution, the flood gates need not be opened. Yet we must temper action with freedom, and this is where we are failing. Mostly due to the fear mongering of terrorism, it's not just related to TSA alone; though TSA is part of the system. It's power grabs by government which erode that which our forefathers fought for. TSA and HLS were not necessary; we already had structures in place. The Patriot Act was not necessary and has only led to abuse. Yet with things such as the TSA, I fear that Americans have become too much like cattle and now it is the government which terrorizes us. Obey the TSA or face its wrath. You may not just be escorted off the property, there's all sorts of nasty little things that can happen to you should you dare raise your voice.
    I agree with you in principle, just not every detail.

    So who are the real terrorists? Or rather, can government itself engage in terrorism against its people? Clearly yes, and clearly it is.
    Not going to get you far.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul (R) Detained by TSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Searching every '10th person' in the inner city would require the government to establish checkpoints in every single 'inner city' in the country. It would require people to get to the city 5 hours in advance and it would effect considerably more people on a daily basis than any security check in an airport world. It would likely result in a severe decrease in business, destruction of the housing market and many other problematic consequences. The comparison is false.
    Is it? At base how is it different? Certainly crime happens a lot, yes? And we'd like to cut down on that crime, yes? So why not allow more invasive forms of search? Why can one not be randomly searched when using a sidewalk? How would that at its fundamental be any different than TSA. You have a lot of deflection here to try to not address the issue. But at issue is the individual and their rights and the interaction with government force, not the aggregated affect on getting somewhere.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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