Pagan mom challenges Bible giveaway at North Carolina school

Removable Mind · Jan 23, 2012

Ockham said:
What's the problem? He came home with a bible?

Perhaps if the Wiccan groups want to have a give away, they can hand out booklets on Wicca.... :shock: It's not like they're sending Jr. home with a 5 cc syringe of high quality vein candy.

Then pass out the Qurans and Tanakhs along with Bibles.... And while they do that. Might has well throw in the daily Horoscope...just to make it all fair.

TheNextEra · Jan 23, 2012

misterman said:
So does this mean you understand that it's an analogy, and what an analogy is?

Yes, and what your analogy has NOTHING to do with what is REALLY going on. Your analogy makes NO SENSE.

misterman said:
Again, if you just give a small child the CHOICE to pick up poison, that's still your responsibility, not the child's. You cannot absolve the school of responsibility..

Again, with the poison analogy. Your analogy is apples to oranges to what is going on. It makes no sense.

Answer my question that I keep asking you. How is allowing the choice of a child to pick up a bible ANY DIFFERENT than allowing a student to pick up a book in the library? What makes the bible so reprehensable that it shouldn't be allowed as a choice for students to pick up? Why can't you answer the question?

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

j-mac said:
The school should not be making decisions for children, that is the responsibility of the Parent.

That's exactly what I'm saying, genius.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the liberal left.

You couldn't be more confused.

In general, rigthwingers want bibles and prayer and religion in schools, and lefties want to leave that stuff to parents.

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

TheNextEra said:
Yes, and what your analogy has NOTHING to do with what is REALLY going on. Your analogy makes NO SENSE.

Sigh.

If you can't grasp it....

Again, with the poison analogy. Your analogy is apples to oranges to what is going on. It makes no sense.

LOL. Analogies are all about comparing apples to oranges.

Answer my question that I keep asking you. How is allowing the choice of a child to pick up a bible ANY DIFFERENT than allowing a student to pick up a book in the library?

The bible (and any other religious text) isn't just another book.

What makes the bible so reprehensable that it shouldn't be allowed as a choice for students to pick up? Why can't you answer the question?

The bible isn't reprehensible. Saying that makes me think you either have no friggin' idea whats' going on, or you're just being annoying. Either way, I'm not interested. Read the thread, the issues have been amply discussed, even for someone like you who displays very little knowledge of this issue and not a great deal of ability to think critically either.

TheNextEra · Jan 23, 2012

misterman said:
LOL. Analogies are all about comparing apples to oranges.

No, they are not, they are to comapre similar situations. This is not in anyway similiar to your analogy. Your fail, not mine.

misterman said:
The bible (and any other religious text) isn't just another book.

Yes, it is like any other book. It has text and words.

misterman said:
The bible isn't reprehensible. Saying that makes me think you either have no friggin' idea whats' going on, or you're just being annoying. Either way, I'm not interested. Read the thread, the issues have been amply discussed, even for someone like you who displays very little knowledge of this issue and not a great deal of ability to think critically either.

I don't care if you're interested in it or not. Your analogy is pointless, unintellgent, and has nothing to do with what is really going on here. You and others like you are demonizing a book. That is what is happening. The school is allowing students to read or have the book. It is no different than offering any other book from a library.

You remind me of the old book burners that wanted to burn all the copies of Tom Sawyer. Pathetic and sickening that you are for the censorship of a book simply because you somehow fear the contents. Disgusting.

j-mac · Jan 23, 2012

misterman said:
That's exactly what I'm saying, genius.

Hey, hey, hey....Let's keep it civil there fella...

But really, you were saying that when you said..

"...the responsibility of schools to make decisions for children."

or I suppose you really weren't calling the Bible "poison" when you said....

"...if you just give a small child the CHOICE to pick up poison..."

What is your particular problem with the Bible?

j-mac

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

TheNextEra said:
No, they are not, they are to comapre similar situations. This is not in anyway similiar to your analogy. Your fail, not mine.

The analogy works just fine.

Yes, it is like any other book. It has text and words.

No, it's not. And now you're just being obtuse.

I don't care if you're interested in it or not. Your analogy is pointless, unintellgent, and has nothing to do with what is really going on here. You and others like you are demonizing a book. That is what is happening. The school is allowing students to read or have the book. It is no different than offering any other book from a library.

I think I understand you now. You just don't want to actually, like, think about it. Thinking hurts.

You remind me of the old book burners that wanted to burn all the copies of Tom Sawyer. Pathetic and sickening that you are for the censorship of a book simply because you somehow fear the contents. Disgusting.

See, this is proof that you have no friggin' idea what's going on and don't want to try to actually think or comprehend or any of that painful stuff. Not interested.

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

j-mac said:
Hey, hey, hey....Let's keep it civil there fella...

I called you genius! What more do you want?

But really, you were saying that when you said..

"...the responsibility of schools to make decisions for children."

Ah, I see the confusion.

What I meant was a school can't pretend it's not responsible for protecting the rights of parents to make decisions for their child (by claiming that the child made the decision).

Here's the analogy, in exquisite detail:

1. The parent doesn't want the kid eating poison (obviously), or being exposed to religious texts she doesn't approve of. (Two entirely different things, but compared only for purposes of making an ANALOGY).
2. The school must take responsibility for protecting the child from eating poison, or from being exposed to religious texts in violation of the parent's wishes.
3. Therefore, much as a school couldn't claim it's not responsible for a child eating poison just because the poison was left out for the child's easy access but not actually put into the child's mouth, a school cannot claim that a child isn't exposed to a religious text in violation of a parent's wishes simply because it was left for the child to pick up rather than handed to the child.
4. No, this doesn't mean a bible is like poison, it's an A-N-A-L-O-G-Y. It is a commentary on the responsibility issue, not the Bible.

or I suppose you really weren't calling the Bible "poison" when you said....

"...if you just give a small child the CHOICE to pick up poison..."

Well, no, I wasn't. Don't tell me you can't handle the analogy either?

What is your particular problem with the Bible?

Oh, for God's sake. Is there anyone out there who I don't have to actually explain an analogy to?

1Perry · Jan 23, 2012

misterman said:
Jesus, isn't there anyone here who understands analogies?

We do not see eye to eye here but I do understand what you are saying and I get the same sort of responses all the time. :shrug:

Good for you. Plenty of other parents WOULD be upset, and that's their right.

There is no gaurantee that one will never get upset or even a right that says your rights trump others because you are upset.

KevinKohler · Jan 23, 2012

Goshin said:
Hmm.

Shall we then have no Bible or Koran in the school library? No books on religion or its impact on society? No mention, in textbooks, of the importance of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages, or the importance of monasteries in preserving knowlege after the fall of Rome? No teaching of Greek or Roman mythology/religion, no literature which discusses religion?

Religion is actually not banned in public schools. You can have student-initiated religious activity/groups/teaching, just not staff-lead religious activity.

Yes, but a bible in the school library, is not solicitation.

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

1Perry said:
We do not see eye to eye here but I do understand what you are saying and I get the same sort of responses all the time. :shrug:

Thank you! Could you take over for a while, I'm tired now.

There is no gaurantee that one will never get upset or even a right that says your rights trump others because you are upset.

No, but if a parent is upset that her, or her child's, Constitutional rights are being violated, that's what makes being upset an issue. I only said "upset" because the other poster did. A parent doesn't have a right not to be upset, but a parent does have Constitutional rights, and those exist even if other wouldn't be upset if they were violated.

KevinKohler · Jan 23, 2012

Question : Is solicitation allowed in public schools?

Answer : No.

I can't go to school and advertise my services as a mechanic to the students there. Neither, then, can a religion advertise their services as soul savers. Even in the form of handing out books, even if a student has to SEEK out the place where those books are handed out.

Elsewise, you'd see a bunch of booths outside of schools, all hawking wares at students, like some sort of open air market.

This was solicitation. Remove religion from the equation, to clear your mind a bit, and you'll see what I'm saying.

1Perry · Jan 23, 2012

misterman said:
Thank you! Could you take over for a while, I'm tired now.

Not my fight.

No, but if a parent is upset that her, or her child's, Constitutional rights are being violated, that's what makes being upset an issue. I only said "upset" because the other poster did. A parent doesn't have a right not to be upset, but a parent does have Constitutional rights, and those exist even if other wouldn't be upset if they were violated.

You have to convice us that having religious material available to kids if they want it if other information is also available is unconsitutional. You haven't done that. The courts have ruled that all must have equal access or none.

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

1Perry said:
You have to convice us that having religious material available to kids if they want it if other information is also available is unconsitutional. You haven't done that.

But that's a different issue. I was responding to the idea that, if handing out Bibles were considered unconstitutional, simply leaving them around to be picked up would make it constitutional.

The courts have ruled that all must have equal access or none.

The courts have had conflicting rulings.

KevinKohler · Jan 23, 2012

1Perry said:
Not my fight.

You have to convice us that having religious material available to kids if they want it if other information is also available is unconsitutional. You haven't done that. The courts have ruled that all must have equal access or none.

This wasn't a case of having religious material "available". Putting a couple coppies of the bible, and other religious texts, in the library, is having it "available". Having people sitting in a booth handing the things out is solicitation. Big difference there.

DashingAmerican · Jan 23, 2012

Kali said:
That is really none of your damn biz.

No, it's not, but if she did force him to throw it away then it shows the same closed minded bigotry of all other religion.

DashingAmerican · Jan 23, 2012

KevinKohler said:
Question : Is solicitation allowed in public schools?

Answer : No.

I can't go to school and advertise my services as a mechanic to the students there. Neither, then, can a religion advertise their services as soul savers. Even in the form of handing out books, even if a student has to SEEK out the place where those books are handed out.

Elsewise, you'd see a bunch of booths outside of schools, all hawking wares at students, like some sort of open air market.

This was solicitation. Remove religion from the equation, to clear your mind a bit, and you'll see what I'm saying.

That would be a bad business practice.

KevinKohler · Jan 23, 2012

DashingAmerican said:
That would be a bad business practice.

You kidding? High school kids drive some real beaters, and SOME of them are into the modding craze...both of which are hugely profitable to a would be unscrupulous mechanic like me. They're what, ages 16-18? With the occasional 19 year old, lol? SOME of them will have money, and I'm pretty sure that given enough time and exposure (like in the school parking lot) I'd be able to convince them to part with a bit of it, to have their car be a little more "respectable".

1Perry · Jan 23, 2012

misterman said:
The courts have had conflicting rulings.

Equal access. It's another pretty easy one.

1Perry · Jan 23, 2012

KevinKohler said:
This wasn't a case of having religious material "available". Putting a couple coppies of the bible, and other religious texts, in the library, is having it "available". Having people sitting in a booth handing the things out is solicitation. Big difference there.

We could argue that but it isn't what was happening.

The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

I've seen Class yearbooks with many pages of solicitations.

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

DashingAmerican said:
No, it's not, but if she did force him to throw it away then it shows the same closed minded bigotry of all other religion.

It's still none of your business.

Plenty of Christians would require their children to throw away non-Christian religious texts too. Big deal. Religious people believe their religion is true and nobody else's is. That shouldn't surprise anyone.

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

1Perry said:
Equal access. It's another pretty easy one.

No, it is far more complicated than that.

Access is not the only issue. Schools are not just the public square, where anyone can just go hand things out or put up signs. The rights of students and parents are at stake too.

1Perry · Jan 23, 2012

misterman said:
No, it is far more complicated than that.

Access is not the only issue. Schools are not just the public square, where anyone can just go hand things out or put up signs. The rights of students and parents are at stake too.

I've not seen the right that is being violated yet. If the community wishes, there is the easy solution. Nobody makes anything available.

DashingAmerican · Jan 23, 2012

KevinKohler said:
You kidding? High school kids drive some real beaters, and SOME of them are into the modding craze...both of which are hugely profitable to a would be unscrupulous mechanic like me. They're what, ages 16-18? With the occasional 19 year old, lol? SOME of them will have money, and I'm pretty sure that given enough time and exposure (like in the school parking lot) I'd be able to convince them to part with a bit of it, to have their car be a little more "respectable".

It's an amazing crowd to market to, but how many of them actually have the money themselves and don't rely on their parents?

KevinKohler · Jan 23, 2012

DashingAmerican said:
It's an amazing crowd to market to, but how many of them actually have the money themselves and don't rely on their parents?

Statistically, more and more of them, these days. How else do kids get into drugs, booze, guns, etc etc.

Pagan mom challenges Bible giveaway at North Carolina school

Removable Mind

Irremovable Intelligence

TheNextEra

misterman

misterman

TheNextEra

j-mac

misterman

misterman

1Perry

KevinKohler

misterman

KevinKohler

1Perry

misterman

KevinKohler

DashingAmerican

Civil Libertarian

DashingAmerican

Civil Libertarian

KevinKohler

1Perry

1Perry

misterman

misterman

1Perry

DashingAmerican

Civil Libertarian

KevinKohler