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Pagan mom challenges Bible giveaway at North Carolina school

1Perry said:
No it isn't. If some group wants to meet and let it be known that their literature will be available for any student that wants it, there is no law against that.
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We're talking about the First Amendment.
 
1Perry said:
Yes, it's really not a difficult concept.
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If that were true, we wouldn't have this thread.

In a school, actually, people get the two clauses mixed up all the time. Or they genuinely conflict.
 
misterman said:
Yes, except in a school setting, those two (establishment and free exercise) can be confused. Students have the right to free exercise. Teachers and administrators working as government employees in an official setting don't get to claim free exercise when it also becomes establishment (a teacher can't read from the bible in class and claim it's free exercise, for instance).

In this case, establishment isn't as clear, but that's still the conflict.
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Yes, that is why the courts have ruled as they have. If you just allow a Christian group meet that is establishing. If you allow all groups to meet that is allowing the free exercise thereof.
 
1Perry said:
Yes, that is why the courts have ruled as they have. If you just allow a Christian group meet that is establishing. If you allow all groups to meet that is allowing the free exercise thereof.
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Right - but like I said, that's about meetings, not distributing literature during the school day.

If a kid went to a meeting, before or after the school day, and got himself a bible, that's different from what happened here.
 
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misterman said:
If that were true, we wouldn't have this thread.

In a school, actually, people get the two clauses mixed up all the time. Or they genuinely conflict.
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McCain/Feingold was pretty darn easy and clear also but yet look at the threads on that.
 
misterman said:
Right - but like I said, that's about meetings, not distributing literature during the school day.

If a kid went to a meeting, before or after the school day, and got himself a bible, that's different from what happened here.
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Can you provide a ruling that stated when school groups may allow their information to be available?
 
1Perry said:
Can you provide a ruling that stated when school groups may allow their information to be available?
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I meant in a meeting vs. in class or the hallways between classes.
 
misterman said:
I meant in a meeting vs. in class or the hallways between classes.
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One would have to look at the particulars of any situation. I agreed that the one presented here was likely done in the wrong way. I wouldn't allow any group to pass out anything in class.

In the hallways in between class? I don't see where it's anyone's business as long as all are allowed.....or none.
 
misterman said:
Irrelevant.

These are kids we're talking about. They are not entirely responsible for their own actions. It's like saying a school can put out poison and if a 6-year-old eats it, nobody made him do it.


Irrelevant.

It's not his choice, it's the parents'.

If your kid came home with a Satanic bible, you'd be pissed too, and all these lame excuses you're using wouldn't work any more.
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Comparing a Bible to poison is asinine retarded. A Bible never killed anyone.
 
Goshin said:
Hmm.

Shall we then have no Bible or Koran in the school library? No books on religion or its impact on society? No mention, in textbooks, of the importance of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages, or the importance of monasteries in preserving knowlege after the fall of Rome? No teaching of Greek or Roman mythology/religion, no literature which discusses religion?

Religion is actually not banned in public schools. You can have student-initiated religious activity/groups/teaching, just not staff-lead religious activity.
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Sorry for my wording but what i mean when I say that is the school shouldnt have hand in it and that is the right way and the best way to ensure equality. Book sin a library I dont care about as long as none are ban, history and literature that cover religion is fine im even fine with religious classes as long as they are electives :shrug:

sorry it was just bad wording by me ;)
 
DashingAmerican said:
Comparing a Bible to poison is asinine retarded.
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If you're not smart enough to get the point, and not respectful enough to ask me clarify, don't waste my time being juvenile and insulting.

A Bible never killed anyone.
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That's highly debatable.
 
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misterman said:
If you're not smart enough to get the point, and not respectful enough to ask me clarify, don't waste my time being juvenile and insulting.



That's highly debatable.
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Oh, I got the point, but alas, my point stands also. Comparing a bible to poison is disrespectful in itself.
 
DashingAmerican said:
Oh, I got the point, but alas, my point stands also. Comparing a bible to poison is disrespectful in itself.
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No, you don't get the point. It's an analogy. As such, it's not disrespectful either.

If you get my point, tell me, what was my point?
 
spud_meister said:
No, religion has no place being taught. There's a difference, and in no way was this kid taught anything by the school.
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I disagree. If you want your kids to learn about religion? Send em to a private school.
 
Goshin said:
Hmm.

Shall we then have no Bible or Koran in the school library? No books on religion or its impact on society? No mention, in textbooks, of the importance of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages, or the importance of monasteries in preserving knowlege after the fall of Rome? No teaching of Greek or Roman mythology/religion, no literature which discusses religion?

Religion is actually not banned in public schools. You can have student-initiated religious activity/groups/teaching, just not staff-lead religious activity.
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Sure. You can have religious classes in High School-you know when kids are old enough to pick that they wish to learn the history of religion and/or various religions. But you damn sure cannot push religion on the children and push one religlion over another. If I had a kid and someone gave them a bible at a public school? I would be raising holy hell and it would not be pretty. I would also sue the **** outta them.
 
DashingAmerican said:
First off, nobody made the boy pick up the bible and take it home. Maybe he wanted to see what Christianity was about instead of being "birthed" into paganism. I'd like to know if the mom made the boy throw it away.
Secondly, if you're going to allow one religious text to be given away then you have to allow them all to be given away.
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That is really none of your damn biz.
 
Kali said:
Sure. You can have religious classes in High School-you know when kids are old enough to pick that they wish to learn the history of religion and/or various religions. But you damn sure cannot push religion on the children and push one religlion over another. If I had a kid and someone gave them a bible at a public school? I would be raising holy hell and it would not be pretty. I would also sue the **** outta them.
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No one handed the kids in the OP story a bible.The bibles were left out for the kids to take.
 
jamesrage said:
No one handed the kids in the OP story a bible.The bibles were left out for the kids to take.
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And again, that's no excuse. These are children we're talking about.

I don't know the age of the kid in the OP - and I agree that the age matters - but let's dispense with the notion that if you just leave stuff out, the school has no responsibility. If you just leave poison out, and a first-grader eats it, that's not the child's fault. These are not adults, and the school has a responsibility to respect the rights of parents to control what religious doctrine a child learns, and making religious texts available to kids - even if they are just sitting there to be picked up and not handed out - may violate that right. To use another analogy - if you put a "Jesus saves" poster on a school wall, you couldn't just say that it's okay because the kids don't have to actually read it.
 
misterman said:
I don't know the age of the kid in the OP - and I agree that the age matters - but let's dispense with the notion that if you just leave stuff out, the school has no responsibility. If you just leave poison out, and a first-grader eats it, that's not the child's fault. These are not adults, and the school has a responsibility to respect the rights of parents to control what religious doctrine a child learns, and making religious texts available to kids - even if they are just sitting there to be picked up and not handed out - may violate that right. To use another analogy - if you put a "Jesus saves" poster on a school wall, you couldn't just say that it's okay because the kids don't have to actually read it.
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So, why do you think the bible is "poison" but other books (say fiction or even some non-fiction) aren't? What makes the bible so reprehensable to you, yet a romance novel in the library not?

I am agnostic, I don't believe that school officials should lead or force anyone in prayer, and even I can't get upset over bibles being just left as a choice for school children to pick up.
 
TheNextEra said:
So, why do you think the bible is "poison" but other books (say fiction or even some non-fiction) aren't? What makes the bible so reprehensable to you, yet a romance novel in the library not?
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Jesus, isn't there anyone here who understands analogies?

My point is about school responsibility vs. student responsibility. It has nothing to do with comparing the bible to poison.

I am agnostic, I don't believe that school officials should lead or force anyone in prayer, and even I can't get upset over bibles being just left as a choice for school children to pick up.
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Good for you. Plenty of other parents WOULD be upset, and that's their right.
 
misterman said:
Jesus, isn't there anyone here who understands analogies?

My point is about school responsibility vs. student responsibility. It has nothing to do with comparing the bible to poison.
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And my question still stands, why is the bible so reprehensable to you, yet other books (such as romance novels) and other fiction or non-fiction books ok? What is in the bible that is so horrible that you would want it banned over other books?
 
TheNextEra said:
And my question still stands, why is the bible so reprehensable to you, yet other books (such as romance novels) and other fiction or non-fiction books ok?
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Do I really have to explain this? Really?

Unbelievable.

Fine. Here we go.

I was making an ANALOGY. It's when you compare two different situations to make a point. In this case, I was talking about the responsibility of schools to make decisions for children. That has absolutely nothing to do with saying the bible is like poison. Seriously, learn what an analogy is.

Here, this may help:

Analogy | What is the Definition of Analogy? | Dictionary.com

analogy
[uh-nal-uh-jee]
noun, plural -gies.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2. similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
3. Biology . an analogous relationship.
4. Linguistics a. the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon was re-formed as shoes, when -ize is added to nouns like winter to form verbs, or when a child says foots for feet.
b. a form resulting from such a process.
5. Logic . a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

What is in the bible that is so horrible that you would want it banned over other books?
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I'm not picking on the Bible, I'm discussing it because it was the subject of the OP.
 
misterman said:
Do I really have to explain this? Really?

Unbelievable.

Fine. Here we go.

I was making an ANALOGY. It's when you compare two different situations to make a point. In this case, I was talking about the responsibility of schools to make decisions for children. That has absolutely nothing to do with saying the bible is like poison. Seriously, learn what an analogy is..
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Here, I didn't think I had to tell you this, but here it goes.

YOU'RE ANALAGY SUCKS AND IS NOT COHERENT.
There you go, understand it now?

How is the school in allowing a CHOICE for students ON THEIR OWN, to pick up a bible, any different than allowing them the CHOICE to pick up a book in the library. Until you can answer that, your point is useless and doesn't make ANY SENSE.
 
TheNextEra said:
Here, I didn't think I had to tell you this, but here it goes.

YOU'RE ANALAGY SUCKS AND IS NOT COHERENT.
There you go, understand it now?
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So does this mean you understand that it's an analogy, and what an analogy is?

How is the school in allowing a CHOICE for students ON THEIR OWN, to pick up a bible, any different than allowing them the CHOICE to pick up a book in the library. Until you can answer that, your point is useless and doesn't make ANY SENSE.
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Again, if you just give a small child the CHOICE to pick up poison, that's still your responsibility, not the child's. You cannot absolve the school of responsibility.

In the same way (this is the analogy thing again, being explained in detail to you), you cannot say that it's not a violation of a parent's right to control what religious beliefs a child is exposed to in a public, government-run school simply because a religious text is just sitting there and is voluntarily picked up by the child.
 
misterman said:
I was talking about the responsibility of schools to make decisions for children.
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The school should not be making decisions for children, that is the responsibility of the Parent. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the liberal left.

j-mac
 
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