• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Pagan mom challenges Bible giveaway at North Carolina school

You've never seen a few Planned Parenthood flyers sitting quietly on a desk in a school hall before?

That is all we're talking about, after all...literature just sitting there, 100% optional to take or leave. I mean, I can link to schools helping minor children, during school houres, get abortions without their parent's knowledge or consent, but the religious equivalent did not occur at this school. No student was converted just as no student had an abortion in the school's nurse's office. It's just information, sitting there quietly, students can take it or leave it.

Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it when it comes to religion, and the courts have said so.

Even to just offer religious instruction or information to kids oversteps the authority of public schools.
 
Literature of Planned parenthood is not having an abortion at school, no matter how you want to try and spin it. Sorry, you lose there. And like I don't agree with a school official directly handing out bibles, I don't think a school official should be sending a child to planned parenthood. However, in the majority of schools, school officials do not send children to planned parenthood.

And since the school didn't hand out bibles, its not any different than having PP literature in the office.
 
So you'd have no problem if your kid brought Mein Kampf home from school and said the school was giving them away?
Um, no. In fact when I was in the 8th grade we had to check out Mein Kampf from the library to do a few homework projects on.
 
"You can either open your public school up to all religious material, or you can say no religious material," Michael Broyde, a professor and senior fellow at Emory University's Center for the Study of Law and Religion said. "You can't say, 'You can distribute religious material, but only from the good mainstream faiths.'"

Read more: Pagan Mom Challenges Bible Giveaway At North Carolina School | Fox News


No problem from me there with that statement.

I disagree with him. That's true in other settings, such as the public square, but not in schools. This isn't about what religions have access to schools, its about protecting students from religious beliefs their parents don't want them to learn.
 
Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it when it comes to religion, and the courts have said so.

Even to just offer religious instruction or information to kids oversteps the authority of public schools.
We're not talking about instruction.

Please quote the court ruling stating that a school can't make bibles available. Don't forget the working hyperlink, I'll be checking it.
 
Um, no. In fact when I was in the 8th grade we had to check out Mein Kampf from the library to do a few homework projects on.

I didn't ask you about the library. I asked you if your kid came home with Mein Kampf in his backpack and says they gave copies away at school. I dare you to tell my you wouldn't raise an eyebrow that that.
 
The question would be: Has the school allowed local Muslim elders from the mosque drop off boxes of the Quran and allow the students to pick those up as well?

And the answer to that question is no. The Wiccan was not allowed the same privileges.

The school officials ought to know better. This situation comes up in the county where I live occasionally. A Christian group asked for permission to use the facilities for a "Fun with Faith" group and was granted permission. In another instance, the Board of Supervisors traditionally opened their meetings with a prayer. In the interest of fairness, a roster was kept and rotated, until a Wiccan showed up. In both cases permission was denied for other groups. The county was wrong.

The Constitution disallows establishment of an official religion, and denial of any religion equal rights amounts to establishment. For me it is simple as that.
 
Sigh.

It doesn't say alot of things, but it still applies.
No it doesn't - the Supreme Court decisions apply.

That's why we have courts, and decisions like Engel v. Vitale, which says more than what you just posted from the First Amendment, doesn't it?
Courts exist to regulate disputes. Court decisions are not static but move with the interpretation over time. You're statement is still incorrect - The Constitution does not say anything like what you attributed to it.


In short, here's the response, which you should know or pretend not to:

Public schools are run by the government and are bound by the First Amendment.
Public schools are run by an administrator hired by a school board, to follow federal guidelines and to meet state and federal standards of learning. Again, it's more accurate to say public schools are FUNDED by the government, and then in turn by the taxpayer.

Teaching children religion violates the establishment clause of that amendment. Therefore, no teaching religion in schools.
Wrong again - (purposely perhaps?) Teaching children religion in public schools does NOT violate the establishment clause, it violates Case Law.


So thanks for citing the case that proves you wrong. You saved me a little homework.
You're ignorance on both case law and the Constitution are seemingly limitless. Please, post more so I can correct you.
 
We're not talking about instruction.

The actual word isn't that important.

Please quote the court ruling stating that a school can't make bibles available. Don't forget the working hyperlink, I'll be checking it.

Didn't say there was one - yet. This may lead to it, that's all.
 
I disagree with him. That's true in other settings, such as the public square, but not in schools. This isn't about what religions have access to schools, its about protecting students from religious beliefs their parents don't want them to learn.

They had the choice to pick them up or not. Should parents be aware these items are available to their kids? Yes they should.
 
No it doesn't - the Supreme Court decisions apply.

Exactly - so why are you busy insisting that only the words in the First Amendment matter?

Courts exist to regulate disputes. Court decisions are not static but move with the interpretation over time. You're statement is still incorrect - The Constitution does not say anything like what you attributed to it.

The court rulings do.

Public schools are run by an administrator hired by a school board, to follow federal guidelines and to meet state and federal standards of learning. Again, it's more accurate to say public schools are FUNDED by the government, and then in turn by the taxpayer.

This idea has been soundly rejected by the courts.

Wrong again - (purposely perhaps?) Teaching children religion in public schools does NOT violate the establishment clause, it violates Case Law.

Good luck in court.

You're ignorance on both case law and the Constitution are seemingly limitless. Please, post more so I can correct you.

You don't get to use both. Pick either case law or your own version.
 
And the answer to that question is no. The Wiccan was not allowed the same privileges.
And that is the problem.

The school officials ought to know better. This situation comes up in the county where I live occasionally. A Christian group asked for permission to use the facilities for a "Fun with Faith" group and was granted permission. In another instance, the Board of Supervisors traditionally opened their meetings with a prayer. In the interest of fairness, a roster was kept and rotated, until a Wiccan showed up. In both cases permission was denied for other groups. The county was wrong.
Agreed, either let everyone participate or no one.

The Constitution disallows establishment of an official religion, and denial of any religion equal rights amounts to establishment. For me it is simple as that.
It also reaffirms that people are free to choose and follow whatever religion as the 1st Amendment states "Freedom OF religion" and NOT "freedom FROM religion". The founders knew at least that there would be multiple religions followed in the future and decided consciously to not promote one over the other. They learned by good old King George's mistakes.
 
I didn't ask you about the library. I asked you if your kid came home with Mein Kampf in his backpack and says they gave copies away at school. I dare you to tell my you wouldn't raise an eyebrow that that.

If it was a part of a large selection of information that kid can pick and choose from, then no, I would not have a problem. I would question the point if it was the one and only item available.
 
They had the choice to pick them up or not. Should parents be aware these items are available to their kids? Yes they should.

"Aware" doesn't cut it. Parents should control their child's access to religious materials.

It's really amazing that conservatives don't get that. They of all people should understand the concept that parents should be able to control their child's exposure to religious doctrine and not have a government-run school override that.
 
If it was a part of a large selection of information that kid can pick and choose from, then no, I would not have a problem. I would question the point if it was the one and only item available.

You may not have a problem with it, but other parents might. And they have that right under the Constitution.
 
And that is the problem.

Agreed, either let everyone participate or no one.

It also reaffirms that people are free to choose and follow whatever religion as the 1st Amendment states "Freedom OF religion" and NOT "freedom FROM religion". The founders knew at least that there would be multiple religions followed in the future and decided consciously to not promote one over the other. They learned by good old King George's mistakes.

Schools are not the public square though. You are not the first to mix up the free exercise and establishment clauses in a school setting. It's easy to do.
 
"Aware" doesn't cut it. Parents should control their child's access to religious materials.

Sure, they should be able to tell the kid to not take them and nobody should interfere with that directive.

It's really amazing that conservatives don't get that. They of all people should understand the concept that parents should be able to control their child's exposure to religious doctrine and not have a government-run school override that.

I wouldn't argue they should.
 
You may not have a problem with it, but other parents might. And they have that right under the Constitution.

They certainly have a right to throw it away, send it back, provide alternative selections, etc.
 
Schools are not the public square though. You are not the first to mix up the free exercise and establishment clauses in a school setting. It's easy to do.

There are restrictions on schools that do not apply in the public square. The courts have ruled that school can police what students wear. That wouldn't be allowed in the public square.

A school can allow information to be available to kids as long as noted, they allow all. They do not have to. They can say no also.
 
Exactly - so why are you busy insisting that only the words in the First Amendment matter?
Because you were incorrect in attributing it to the Consitution. Say you were mistaken and I drop it, or continue to squirm. :shrug:

The court rulings do.


Is that your way of admitting your following statement relating to what the Constitution says was incorrect?

misterman said:
So you have no problem with government-run schools indoctrinating our children with religion?

(Not that it matters, since the Constitution says you can't anyway).


misterman said:
This idea has been soundly rejected by the courts.
i.e., Case Law.


misterman said:
You don't get to use both. Pick either case law or your own version.
I choose to use the Constitution which is what you incorrectly stated, prevents indoctrination of children with religion in schools.
 
If it was a part of a large selection of information that kid can pick and choose from, then no, I would not have a problem. I would question the point if it was the one and only item available.

I agree...there are some educational merits in having the Bible with other available books.
 
Actually this is also a part of a schools job. Why do you think that kids are punished at school for not doing homework? For fighting? For bullying? For purposely breaking things? etc etc.

A child's teachings about morality and making good judgement calls should never just stop because they are not around thier parents. That would just lead the kid to think that it is ok to do something bad any time that they want as long as thier parents are not around.

wrong
you conflate the teaching of socially acceptable behavior with that of religious ideology
one is within the bailiwick of the school. the other is solely at the discretion of the parents
extra points if you can distinguish which falls exclusively within the parent's responsibility
 
Buddhists aren't known for their evangelical efforts, they pretty much keep it in their temple and their home.

It's note worthy to point out that this angry woman only brought wiccan material to the school in response to being outraged, whereas the Gideons have a centuries long history of passing out free bibles to whomever is interested. Her bringing material to the school was not a bona fied effort to make information about witchcraft available, it wasn't an honest effort to display her religion on equal footing. Her intent was simply to stir the pot.

This lady needs to just chill.

her motivations for providing the tracts about the ideology she prefers has no bearing on this matter
if the school is going to be the conduit of religious ideology of one religion then it is obligated to also serve as the same conduit for any other ... including paganism
 
A box in the office that says "free bibles" is indoctrination?

I suppose having any church within earshot is indoctrination too.

you have missed the point

that the same school refuses to similarly offer the written tracts about paganism (or any other religious ideology) evidences a religious preference
something which cannot be (legally) done by a governmental institution
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom