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Pagan mom challenges Bible giveaway at North Carolina school

misterman said:
1: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach
2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle

So perhaps it's not as long as the kid doesn't actually open the bible and read it. :roll: I'm sure that's the purpose of the give away.
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Right, so if I leave a copy of Mein Kampf at a school, it's guaranteed that any kid that reads it will become Hitlers mini-me?
 
misterman said:
Let's try this again. A kid coming home with a bible from a public school. You see no problem? (Appropriate screen name you go there).
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So school children should be able to choose abortion, but not a bible.
 
misterman said:
Let's try this again. A kid coming home with a bible from a public school. You see no problem?
.
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Nope I don't have a problem with it as long as other religious texts are available for distribution as well. In this case the school prohibited the distribution of other religious texts and is in the wrong for that.

I don't look at it as indoctrination, I look at it as someone passing around a flyer. The students aren't forced to take the bibles or texts so I don't see an issue here. If they don't want it, they don't have to take it. But if the school makes one availalbe, they have to make all available.
 
Jerry said:
So school children should be able to choose abortion, but not a bible.
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I wasn't aware children got abortions at school, perhaps you can show us the link where this happens?
 
spud_meister said:
Right, so if I leave a copy of Mein Kampf at a school, it's guaranteed that any kid that reads it will become Hitlers mini-me?
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So you'd have no problem if your kid brought Mein Kampf home from school and said the school was giving them away?
 
misterman said:
Let's try this again. A kid coming home with a bible from a public school. You see no problem?

(Appropriate screen name you go there).
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I think it depends on the context. When the kid was not tought about Christianity in an indoctrinating manner, I don't see a problem with it. Teaching kids about religion in public schools is a good thing, IMO, as long as this lecture is not biased towards one religion or denomination. Likewise, I don't think it's indoctrination when kids get to read from Karl Marx' "The Capital" or Hitler's "Mein Kampf" in class, or being provided with free copies, as long as the context of the lecture is not indoctrinating. Lessons should provide different points of view on the respective topic, of course, and enable kids to get familiar with these different views. You can't do that without reading some source material.

Ideally, kids should be taught about all important religions in school, in a scientific manner -- the role of the respective religions in history, science and culture of different countries. Religion happened and it's real, and avoiding to teach kids about it is just as absurd as avoiding to teach them about homosexuality, which exists too and won't go away by ignoring it. You won't get a real picture of the real world, when you avoid this topic.
 
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TheNextEra said:
Nope I don't have a problem with it as long as other religious texts are available for distribution as well. In this case the school prohibited the distribution of other religious texts and is in the wrong for that.
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The schools aren't a religion bazaar. This isn't about access by religion to schools, it's about parents controlling what kids learn about religion. A parent may want a kid not to see any other religious texts, or any of them at all. Simply leave that decision to the parents.
 
German guy said:
I think it depends on the context. When the kid was not tought about Christianity in an indoctrinating manner, I don't see a problem with it. Teaching kids about religion in public schools is a good thing, IMO, as long as this lecture is not biased towards one religion or denomination.
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You don't get to decide that.

I want my kid to learn the religious beliefs I choose for him. The end. If I want him to learn about other religions, and which ones, that will be my choice only.
 
misterman said:
So you'd have no problem if your kid brought Mein Kampf home from school and said the school was giving them away?
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None at all. Provided it was in actuality some Nazi's that had left the books, and not the school itself. When I was in school I read the Bible, the Koran, Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto and the Illiad, and surprise, I didn't turn out to be a Christian, Muslim, Nazi, Communist, hairy homosexual. Hell, considering some of the **** that gets published as teen literature, I'd actively encourage kids to read religious and political texts.
 
misterman said:
The schools aren't a religion bazaar. This isn't about access by religion to schools, it's about parents controlling what kids learn about religion. A parent may want a kid not to see any other religious texts, or any of them at all. Simply leave that decision to the parents.
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School members hand out flyer to various things all the time. The students can choose to take them or not. It is the same as a religious text. If a parent doesn't want a child to see a religious text or afraid their child will see something they don't want them to, homeschool them.

This is ridiculous.
 
As a Christian, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for the Wiccan woman to pass out her scriptures if others can pass out Bibles. I see no problem with allowing her to do so and I think it's wrong to deny her when other groups are allowed to do so.
 
misterman said:
You don't get to decide that.

I want my kid to learn the religious beliefs I choose for him. The end. If I want him to learn about other religions, and which ones, that will be my choice only.
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Are you going to prohibit your child from going to the library, or google searching as well at school? Religoious texts are EVERYWHERE and it is nearly impossible to keep a child from seeing it. That's like saying you don't want your child to learn what the internet is. It's nearly impossible.
 
misterman said:
You don't get to decide that.

I want my kid to learn the religious beliefs I choose for him. The end. If I want him to learn about other religions, and which ones, that will be my choice only.
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You think you have the right to raise your kid to become a one-sided bigot?

I'd say, if that's your opinion, don't send him or her to public schools. Public schools have the purpose of preparing the kid to be fit for life and reality, and to help the kid to become a mature and responsible person, IMO. Denying kids knowledge about important aspects of reality is in contradiction with this purpose.
 
misterman said:
So you have no problem with government-run schools indoctrinating our children with religion?

(Not that it matters, since the Constitution says you can't anyway).
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I answered this twice already and while I don't mind repeating myself, I'll simply point you back to those other posts so you can inform yourself.

However, I'm always amazed at the misinformation about the Constitution. No where in the Constitution does it state that religion cannot be provided in schools. The religion clause states:


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Notice, it doesn't say "Children cannot be indoctrinated with religion in government-run schools" in fact, you could not be more wrong about the clause if you tried to be. And it "matters" in the sense that ill conceived notions, misinformation and outright ignorance about what the Constitution actually says is still very prevalent, as you have shown. The Establishment Clauses in the Constitution do not say anything about schools - and the notion of a "separation between church and state" is not included in the Constitution, that was lifted from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote.

I do not want to debate Engle vs Vitale all over again, but don't attribute things to the Constitution before checking it.... if you want to say that the Supreme Court in various legal decisions have supported a separation between church and state, that's fine.
 
spud_meister said:
None at all.
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Well, I would suggest that you are in the extreme minority.

And that's even before we consider the fact that distributing the Bible, unlike Mien Kampf, has constitutional implications.
 
misterman said:
Well, I would suggest that you are in the extreme minority.
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Probably because I realise people are capable of thinking, and don't do what any random book tells them to do.
And that's even before we consider the fact that distributing the Bible, unlike Mien Kampf, has constitutional implications.
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Right, good point:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
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By banning people from bringing bibles to schools, you're prohibiting the free exercise of religion.
 
misterman said:
Well, I would suggest that you are in the extreme minority.

And that's even before we consider the fact that distributing the Bible, unlike Mien Kampf, has constitutional implications.
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You mean "Mein Kampf" has no constitutional implications? WTF?!
 
Ockham said:
I answered this twice already and while I don't mind repeating myself, I'll simply point you back to those other posts so you can inform yourself.

However, I'm always amazed at the misinformation about the Constitution. No where in the Constitution does it state that religion cannot be provided in schools. The religion clause states:


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Notice, it doesn't say "Children cannot be indoctrinated with religion in government-run schools" in fact, you could not be more wrong about the clause if you tried to be. And it "matters" in the sense that ill conceived notions, misinformation and outright ignorance about what the Constitution actually says is still very prevalent, as you have shown. The Establishment Clauses in the Constitution do not say anything about schools - and the notion of a "separation between church and state" is not included in the Constitution, that was lifted from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote.

I do not want to debate Engle vs Vitale all over again, but don't attribute things to the Constitution before checking it.... if you want to say that the Supreme Court in various legal decisions have supported a separation between church and state, that's fine.
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Sigh.

It doesn't say alot of things, but it still applies.

That's why we have courts, and decisions like Engel v. Vitale, which says more than what you just posted from the First Amendment, doesn't it?

In short, here's the response, which you should know or pretend not to:

Public schools are run by the government and are bound by the First Amendment. Teaching children religion violates the establishment clause of that amendment. Therefore, no teaching religion in schools.

And Engel v. Vitale said the fact that the instruction (in that case, a prayer) was voluntary was irrelevant.

So thanks for citing the case that proves you wrong. You saved me a little homework.
 
misterman said:
Sigh.

It doesn't say alot of things, but it still applies.

That's why we have courts, and decisions like Engel v. Vitale, which says more than what you just posted from the First Amendment, doesn't it?

In short, here's the response, which you should know or pretend not to:

Public schools are run by the government and are bound by the First Amendment. Teaching children religion violates the establishment clause of that amendment. Therefore, no teaching religion in schools.

And Engel v. Vitale said the fact that the instruction (in that case, a prayer) was voluntary was irrelevant.

So thanks for citing the case that proves you wrong. You saved me a little homework.
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And since no person in the school was teaching religion, your point is mute.
 
spud_meister said:
Probably because I realise people are capable of thinking, and don't do what any random book tells them to do.
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This is CHILDREN we are talking about. They are by definition not legally "capable of thinking." That's why they are not allowed to drive, vote, sign contracts, drink, etc. - did you notice?

Nobody cares if you give bibles away to adults.

By banning people from bringing bibles to schools, you're prohibiting the free exercise of religion.
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Nobody's banning anyone from bringing bibles to school here. Don't get desperate.
 
Samhain said:
And since no person in the school was teaching religion, your point is mute.
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That's debatable.

And a court may decide that issue soon.

Luckily, judges do a much better job of understanding the law and the Constitution and sorting out all these details than the Internet does.
 
TheNextEra said:
I wasn't aware children got abortions at school, perhaps you can show us the link where this happens?
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You've never seen a few Planned Parenthood flyers sitting quietly on a desk in a school hall before?

That is all we're talking about, after all...literature just sitting there, 100% optional to take or leave. I mean, I can link to schools helping minor children, during school houres, get abortions without their parent's knowledge or consent, but the religious equivalent did not occur at this school. No student was converted just as no student had an abortion in the school's nurse's office. It's just information, sitting there quietly, students can take it or leave it.

As a sidebar, the wiccan woman was only turned away after the school started an investigation of her accusations and a review of the school's policies. At the time she was not allowed to offer wiccan material, the school did not have bibles available.
 
misterman said:
This is CHILDREN we are talking about. They are by definition not legally "capable of thinking." That's why they are not allowed to drive, vote, sign contracts, drink, etc. - did you notice?

Nobody cares if you give bibles away to adults.
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We're not talking about legally here, we're talking about reality, a 12 year old isn't going to give up eating pork until he reaches the New Testament.


Nobody's banning anyone from bringing bibles to school here. Don't get desperate.
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Sorry? When you say it's unconstitutional for people to leave bibles at schools, what do you propose be done?
 
Jerry said:
You've never seen a few Planned Parenthood flyers sitting quietly on a desk in a school hall before?

That is all we're talking about, after all...literature just sitting there, 100% optional to take or leave. I mean, I can link to schools helping minor children, during school houres, get abortions without their parent's knowledge or consent, but the religious equivalent did not occur at this school. No student was converted just as no student had an abortion in the school's nurse's office. It's just information, sitting there quietly, students can take it or leave it.

As a sidebar, the wiccan woman was only turned away after the school started an investigation of her accusations and a review of the school's policies. At the time she was not allowed to offer wiccan material, the school did not have bibles available.
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Literature of Planned parenthood is not having an abortion at school, no matter how you want to try and spin it. Sorry, you lose there. And like I don't agree with a school official directly handing out bibles, I don't think a school official should be sending a child to planned parenthood. However, in the majority of schools, school officials do not send children to planned parenthood.
 
"You can either open your public school up to all religious material, or you can say no religious material," Michael Broyde, a professor and senior fellow at Emory University's Center for the Study of Law and Religion said. "You can't say, 'You can distribute religious material, but only from the good mainstream faiths.'"

Read more: Pagan Mom Challenges Bible Giveaway At North Carolina School | Fox News

No problem from me there with that statement.
 
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