• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Keystone oil sands pipeline rejected

Ok, I understand what 'job years' are. I worked in the construction industry for a decade trucking aggregate materiel. the point is that these workers are not individual contractors. Many if not all are employed by companies that are in business doing many different facets of construction, and likely would increase employment with a project like this, and work contracts. When those contracts are done, they constantly build their base to either maintain the business, or replace finished jobs.

You are retired, ok, great. I hope to someday get there, but I will have retired from trucking, what did you retire from?

j-mac

I owned and developed several businesses when I was young, went back to school to study law and then went into corporate America.

I know they aren't individual contractors... but the companies may not have continuous pipeline projects after Keystone xl is complete.
 
I owned and developed several businesses when I was young, went back to school to study law and then went into corporate America.

I know they aren't individual contractors... but the companies may not have continuous pipeline projects after Keystone xl is complete.


Ok, so then I still have no idea if you know about the construction trade, but it seems, and I am not trying to insult here, but it seems as though maybe your expertise is in fields other than that. Because, see, I do know a little about it, and I can assure you that there are many facets to the field, and laying this pipe is not the only thing they do. I would be willing to bet that the same firms that get hired and increase their employment due to this project are like say on the level of say, AmericanInfrastructure Inc. A major builder of Highway, Roads, and major building projects. The pipeline would one of many projects to a firm like this, and a good possibility would be that the jobs created by the pipeline wouldn't, or couldn't become permanent pathways to employment to a good company with good track records, and benefits for someone now that has nothing.

It is kind of like when my wonderful wife and I were talking, about her own job search, see she is a 20 year Graphic designer that worked for a Tribune owned local paper in Maryland, and was bought out. It took several different jobs, and now I can sadly say three years for her to find anything that she can do, and it is part time, at half her original hourly rate that she made, and that was at this point anything, even temporary work is gladly acceptable. We needed the income.

To dismiss even a temp job, if that is what it would be just because it isn't 'good enough' for you is IMHO damning someone to continue their present misery. Why would that be acceptable?


j-mac
 
Although I could rail on about using a blog from the NRDC, as your back up to your claims,

Would you prefer Forbes...or one of the other hundreds of sources, again I must ask if you simply do not research anything?

"Concerns About TransCanada's Super-Sizing

Keystone pipeline and Keystone XL

The last thing you want when you’re waiting to get a new construction permit approved is for one of your existing buildings to collapse.

It’s just doesn’t inspire confidence.

That’s the situation facing TransCanada Corp. following a 20,000 gallon spill Saturday from its Keystone oil pipeline. The Canadian company is waiting for approval from the U.S. State Department to build a controversial $7 billion, “Keystone XL,” a larger, longer pipeline to carry heavy oil from oil sand fields in Alberta nearly 2,000 miles to refineries in Texas.

The Keystone pipeline (30″ pipe) only goes as far as Oklahoma and moves roughly a half-million barrels of oil a day. It’s big brother (36″ pipe) could carry twice that volume and stretch all the way down to southernmost Texas."






it would be a better question to ask you if you know how fast that spill was cleaned up, and if there was any lasting damage to the environment due to it?

j-mac

Likely, it will never be cleaned:
"But while an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico presents its own unique hurdles to cleanup efforts – it is the world’s ninth largest body of water, after all – the workers in Montana are dealing with something quite different. The Yellowstone waters are moving quickly: 5 to 7 mph, according to National Wildlife Federation senior scientist Doug Inkley. That has several effects. First, the rushing water is dispersing the oil far away from the spill site so that it is harder for the booms and pads to pick up. Second, steps like skimming and burning aren’t going to be effective because the wide dispersal of the oil means there aren’t any large quantities of crude on the water surface. And finally, the swollen, volatile waters from the flood make it difficult for boats to get out on the river to assess the condition, which hampers efficient cleanup.

“This is a time of peak water flow in the Yellowstone River because its water supply is water from snow runoff, which is occurring at maximum rates now given that it’s July,” Inkley explained. “And if there is any rough water whatsoever, [the booms and pads] are essentially ineffective. They’re not going to get that oil back.”


Read more: The Yellowstone Oil Spill May Be More Difficult to Clean Up Than the BP Gulf Spill | Ecocentric | TIME.com
 
Would you prefer Forbes...or one of the other hundreds of sources, again I must ask if you simply do not research anything?

"Concerns About TransCanada's Super-Sizing

Keystone pipeline and Keystone XL

The last thing you want when you’re waiting to get a new construction permit approved is for one of your existing buildings to collapse.

It’s just doesn’t inspire confidence.

That’s the situation facing TransCanada Corp. following a 20,000 gallon spill Saturday from its Keystone oil pipeline. The Canadian company is waiting for approval from the U.S. State Department to build a controversial $7 billion, “Keystone XL,” a larger, longer pipeline to carry heavy oil from oil sand fields in Alberta nearly 2,000 miles to refineries in Texas.

The Keystone pipeline (30″ pipe) only goes as far as Oklahoma and moves roughly a half-million barrels of oil a day. It’s big brother (36″ pipe) could carry twice that volume and stretch all the way down to southernmost Texas."








Likely, it will never be cleaned:
"But while an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico presents its own unique hurdles to cleanup efforts – it is the world’s ninth largest body of water, after all – the workers in Montana are dealing with something quite different. The Yellowstone waters are moving quickly: 5 to 7 mph, according to National Wildlife Federation senior scientist Doug Inkley. That has several effects. First, the rushing water is dispersing the oil far away from the spill site so that it is harder for the booms and pads to pick up. Second, steps like skimming and burning aren’t going to be effective because the wide dispersal of the oil means there aren’t any large quantities of crude on the water surface. And finally, the swollen, volatile waters from the flood make it difficult for boats to get out on the river to assess the condition, which hampers efficient cleanup.

“This is a time of peak water flow in the Yellowstone River because its water supply is water from snow runoff, which is occurring at maximum rates now given that it’s July,” Inkley explained. “And if there is any rough water whatsoever, [the booms and pads] are essentially ineffective. They’re not going to get that oil back.”


Read more: The Yellowstone Oil Spill May Be More Difficult to Clean Up Than the BP Gulf Spill | Ecocentric | TIME.com

Wait a minute, these are two different spills you are talking about, right?


j-mac
 
Ok, so then I still have no idea if you know about the construction trade, but it seems, and I am not trying to insult here, but it seems as though maybe your expertise is in fields other than that. Because, see, I do know a little about it, and I can assure you that there are many facets to the field, and laying this pipe is not the only thing they do. I would be willing to bet that the same firms that get hired and increase their employment due to this project are like say on the level of say, AmericanInfrastructure Inc. A major builder of Highway, Roads, and major building projects. The pipeline would one of many projects to a firm like this, and a good possibility would be that the jobs created by the pipeline wouldn't, or couldn't become permanent pathways to employment to a good company with good track records, and benefits for someone now that has nothing.

It is kind of like when my wonderful wife and I were talking, about her own job search, see she is a 20 year Graphic designer that worked for a Tribune owned local paper in Maryland, and was bought out. It took several different jobs, and now I can sadly say three years for her to find anything that she can do, and it is part time, at half her original hourly rate that she made, and that was at this point anything, even temporary work is gladly acceptable. We needed the income.

To dismiss even a temp job, if that is what it would be just because it isn't 'good enough' for you is IMHO damning someone to continue their present misery. Why would that be acceptable?


j-mac

Yes.. I am aware of all sorts of requirement to build a pipeline.. I used to fly TAPLINE in a piper cub with my dad before computerized monitoring.

TransCanada Corp. has selected Quanta Services-owned Price Gregory Services to be part of MPS Constructors, a joint venture made up of Michels Corp., Price Gregory Services and Sheehan Pipe Line Construction, that will build the 1,179-mile section of Keystone XL between Hardisty, Alberta, to Steele City, NB, and related infrastructure that are part of the project.

continued.

JV Selected By TransCanada To Build Keystone XL Pipeline | Pipeline News
 
Wait a minute, these are two different spills you are talking about, right?


j-mac


Well, with twelve to pick from...I didn't think to look closely enough to correlate the damn spill number, in fact I believe this has bolstered my point if anything.
 
For the record, I was asking tecoyah about the ND spill that occurred, which he was referencing, and in his reply to my question, he then shifted to quote something on the Yellowstone spill, a different spill, in a different state. Now other than to deceive, why would someone do that?

Now, with a cursory google search, I found this in the first link:

Keystone Pipeline restarts following oil spill in North Dakota


May 16, 2011
By Phaedra Friend Troy
TransCanada Corporation (NYSE:TRP) (TSX: TRP) has restarted its massive Keystone Pipeline system following an above-ground oil spill that occurred at a pump station in Sargent County, North Dakota on May 7.
The Keystone pipeline was shut-in within minutes of the release when a drop in pressure within the line was detected.
The oil release happened at the Ludden Pump Station, where 30 personnel have been on-location to contain the escaped oil. Three hundred of the 500 spilled barrels of oil have been recovered, and three hundred cubic yards of contaminated soil will be removed and replaced with clean soil and gravel.

The oil spill was caused by a damaged three-quarter-inch fitting, and TransCanada has re-inspected all similar fittings at all of its pump stations in the United States and Canada, installing stronger fittings where appropriate.
Local and federal regulatory agencies were notified of the incident.
"TransCanada has taken this incident very seriously," said Russ Girling, TransCanada's president and CEO. "We have fully communicated details regarding the incident and our corrective actions to our U.S. regulator PHMSA in ensuring the steps we have taken will enable us to safely re-start the pipeline."

Keystone Pipeline restarts following oil spill in North Dakota

Now, I can only speculate that he found the same information, and the supposed disastrous spill he was trying to pin on TransCanada was 300 cubic yards of displacement. Anyone that has been in anything aggregate knows that equals about three tri axle dump trucks, a bucket loader, and reclamation crew about one day to clean up. Maybe that is why he tried to pull this fast one.


j-mac
 
Well, with twelve to pick from...I didn't think to look closely enough to correlate the damn spill number, in fact I believe this has bolstered my point if anything.

Hmmm...Weren't you just mocking those of us that oppose your argument, as people that didn't know how to research anything? You think this aids your argument? Nah....It doesn't.


j-mac
 
I understand, people don't like change.

Fact is, even at very high rates the electricity for a car is almost nothing compared to the cost of gasoline.

The model-T probably couldn't go very far on a tank of gas, either, and I bet gas stations were harder to find then than electrical outlets are now.

As for re-charging, I think eventually we'll have standard battery packs just like we have standard size batteries. Pull into a station, swap the pack, and you're on the road again. We're only at the first generation, just starting on the second generation - lots of room for improvement this early in a technology.

People can handle change all right. It's just the corruption and scandal within the government regarding these enterprises where many get concerned and legitimately angry.

The government will often get into these programs, such as controlling population, saving trees, curbing global resources or funding new sources of energy, and use fear and shame to accomplish their ends. The ends are raiding the public purse.

They will easily claim that their mission is to save humanity in any number of ways but, as usual, it's all about money and power.

Let creative entrepreneurs risk their money, and there are many prepared to do that. But the politicians - and this really shouldn't need restating - are often dishonest. Yet despite this overwhelming evidence against them there are still those who give them credence. It is a mystery why this is so, but it was ever thus.
 
Last edited:
Well, with twelve to pick from...I didn't think to look closely enough to correlate the damn spill number, in fact I believe this has bolstered my point if anything.


I suppose, granting deficient comprehension, someone could miss the basics...and even manage to adjust the blinders enough to pretend there is something less than obvious opinion in here, to those able to use logical thought...you have failed.
 
Hmmm...Weren't you just mocking those of us that oppose your argument, as people that didn't know how to research anything? You think this aids your argument? Nah....It doesn't.


j-mac


Yes, in actuality I suppose I was (though not intentionally), Any mock came about BECAUSE I pointed out the lack of research, and thus infomed and educated debate. I do not pretend n my debate style...nor do I intend to fail in my arguments, That others decide to forgo study of a topic is of benefit to me.
 
Yes, in actuality I suppose I was (though not intentionally), Any mock came about BECAUSE I pointed out the lack of research, and thus infomed and educated debate. I do not pretend n my debate style...nor do I intend to fail in my arguments, That others decide to forgo study of a topic is of benefit to me.


Great, another that believes they are superior to the rest of humanity....I have little use for that nonsense. Tell you what, why don't you just talk like a regular person, instead of someone that sounds like they are constantly talking down, or condescending to speak to the regular people?

That way maybe we can have a normal conversation.


j-mac
 
I thought you libs loved to quote FactCheck. Guess that's only when it proves some leftwing point. When it proves your lies, it is unreliable.

ROFLMAO... your own source mostly debunks your own claim :doh

[...] In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a surplus of refining capacity. Then, over the course of two decades, half of the plants shut down. In 2001, Oregon senator Ron Wyden presented to Congress a report arguing that these closings were calculated choices intended to increase oil company profits. Fewer refineries means less product in circulation, which means a lower supply-to-demand ratio and more profit. Wyden's report cites internal memos from the oil industry implying that this reduction was a deliberate attempt to curtail profit losses.
 
I was complimenting your plug for thorium-based fission. I'd prefer that approach, too.

Sorry, I took it as sarcasm. In China not only are the mines that should know better polluting, but there is a black-market and people will dig small areas for rare earths releasing radioactive toxic wastes into the ground water. The example I gave in Malaysia is claimed to have had radioactive wastes put in fertilizer that killed the cows eating the grass.

Malaysia Rare Earths in Largest Would-Be Refinery Incite Protest - Bloomberg
 
Great, another that believes they are superior to the rest of humanity....I have little use for that nonsense. Tell you what, why don't you just talk like a regular person, instead of someone that sounds like they are constantly talking down, or condescending to speak to the regular people?

That way maybe we can have a normal conversation.


j-mac


I am not "talking down" to anyone...that you feel I am says more about you than it does about me. I will note however, that you have avoided any actual debate on the information I have provided. In most circles, this constitutes winning. Deny it and we may continue.
 
I am not "talking down" to anyone...that you feel I am says more about you than it does about me. I will note however, that you have avoided any actual debate on the information I have provided. In most circles, this constitutes winning. Deny it and we may continue.

I am just not sure that someone that was immediately so intentionally dishonest in their argument deserves my time....Do you Tec? Offer an argument where you have facts, and not enviro whacko junk, and we can absolutely move forward.


j-mac
 
[...] Now, I can only speculate that he found the same information, and the supposed disastrous spill he was trying to pin on TransCanada was 300 cubic yards of displacement. Anyone that has been in anything aggregate knows that equals about three tri axle dump trucks, a bucket loader, and reclamation crew about one day to clean up. Maybe that is why he tried to pull this fast one.
A spill is a spill... trying to accuse others of duplicity does not obviate that fact. Here are some more:

For a year now, Marshall, Michigan, has resembled a town under siege. [...] It’s been like this since last July 25 [2010], when more than 800,000 gallons of crude spilled from a pipeline into a creek that feeds the Kalamazoo River, about 100 miles upriver from Lake Michigan. The EPA ranks it as the largest spill in Midwestern history, but even so, officials say that oil from a typical disaster of that size would have been cleaned up long ago: skimmed, soaked, and vacuumed from the surface.

But this was no typical oil spill. The pipeline owned by the Canadian company Enbridge carried mostly heavy, viscous crude from tar sands fields in Alberta, Canada, bound for Midwestern refineries. Raw tar sands oil, or bitumen, is so thick that it has to be mixed with a thinning compound, or diluent -- a highly volatile derivative of natural gas that includes large amounts of benzene and other toxic chemicals -- in order to make it liquid enough to pump through pipelines. When that combination, known as DilBit, spilled out of the ruptured pipeline, the benzene and other chemicals in the mixture went airborne, forcing mandatory evacuations of surrounding homes (many of which were later bought by Enbridge because their owners couldn’t safely return), while the thick, heavy bitumen sank into the water column and coated the river and lake bottom, mixing with sediment and suffocating bottom-dwelling plants, animals, and micro-organisms.

A Year After Pipeline Spill, Tar Sands Oil Still Plagues a Michigan Community | OnEarth Magazine

[Reuters Jul 14, 2011] An Exxon Mobil pipeline that ruptured, leaking [42,000 gallons of] oil into Yellowstone River, may have sometimes carried a heavier and more toxic form of crude than initially thought, federal regulators said on Thursday. The U.S. Transportation Department's Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration spokeswoman Patricia Klinger said her office had learned that the pipeline may have been used to carry heavier crude.

"I just found out that apparently, and the regional folks just found out, there is an interconnect on the pipeline that possibly does carry some oil out of Canada," she said in response to a question about tar sands crude in the pipeline. [...] Tar sands crude may cause more wear and tear on pipes because of its chemical makeup, including corrosive and abrasive agents, said Tom Finch, the pipeline administration's technical services director for the western regional office.

Montana spill pipeline may have carried oil sands crude | Reuters
 
Last edited:
I am just not sure that someone that was immediately so intentionally dishonest in their argument deserves my time....Do you Tec? Offer an argument where you have facts, and not enviro whacko junk, and we can absolutely move forward.


j-mac

Obviously, if you believe me to be dishonest there is no reason to continue...(though if you look at my posts they contain primarily verified data from multiple sources, making the dishonesty claim rather impotent). As for "deserving your time", I doubt I ever will in your mind, which is totally acceptable to me. By attempting (poorly), to seem more competent than your opponent through arbitrary degradation that carries no weight in the minds of thinking people you literally destroy your own credibility just by typing.

If you truly wish to continue however, might I suggest you address the Data I provided above....oh, and I type the words I think, even if it rubs you the wrong way.
 
[...] The point is that these workers are not individual contractors. Many if not all are employed by companies that are in business doing many different facets of construction, and likely would increase employment with a project like this, and work contracts. When those contracts are done, they constantly build their base to either maintain the business, or replace finished jobs.
Which means there may be no new jobs at all... it may simply be a contractor moving from his last job to his new job -- the Keystone XL -- then moving on to another job, all with the same workforce.

No. New. Jobs. At. All.

Thanks for providing that insight :doh
 
People can handle change all right. It's just the corruption and scandal within the government regarding these enterprises where many get concerned and legitimately angry.

The government will often get into these programs, such as controlling population, saving trees, curbing global resources or funding new sources of energy, and use fear and shame to accomplish their ends. The ends are raiding the public purse.

They will easily claim that their mission is to save humanity in any number of ways but, as usual, it's all about money and power.

Let creative entrepreneurs risk their money, and there are many prepared to do that. But the politicians - and this really shouldn't need restating - are often dishonest. Yet despite this overwhelming evidence against them there are still those who give them credence. It is a mystery why this is so, but it was ever thus.
I won't rattle around about corruption, it happens, it will continue to happen, and there's little we can do about it. (This happens on both sides of the aisle.) I also loathe politicians using ANY emotional argument but also realize most people don't listen to reason leaving them little choice for persuasion.

I think if we don't get into solar manufacturing now, we'll be buying panels from China for a very long time.

Historically a lot of new technologies have come from government spending. WWII, Vietnam, the Cold War, and the Space Race created new technologies with spin-offs we never would have imagined. Corporations are great at taking an existing market and making better products but a huge number of new markets have been opened by gadgets the government needed and developed. Planes/jets, helicopters, nuclear power, and tons of stuff from NASA:

NASA - Technologies Available for Licensing
THE BEST OF NASA'S SPINOFFS

Even modern toothpaste was developed for NASA - the astronauts needed something they could ingest.
 
I think if we don't get into solar manufacturing now, we'll be buying panels from China for a very long time.
And where is the harm in that? Let China spend their trillions developing the technology and then Americans, or whomever, can improve on it.

That's what has been happing with technology forever, and it is not a bad thing. There us no shame in letting others develop first and then building on that. And it would be interesting to see China complain about any 'piracy' as a result of others copying their advancements.
Even modern toothpaste was developed for NASA - the astronauts needed something they could ingest.

NASA should be auctioned off. There is no longer any need for its existence.
2011 preview: Private space flight takes off - space - 23 December 2010 - New Scientist

NASA has trivialized itself to such a degree from what it once was that it will never recover.

NASA Chief: Next Frontier Better Relations With Muslim World | Fox News
 
Uh....this, for one:
The Ogallala Aquifer occupies the High Plains of the United States, extending northward from western Texas to South Dakota. The Ogallala is the leading geologic formation in what is known as the High Plains Aquifer System. The entire system underlies about 450,000 square kilometers (174,000 square miles) of eight states. Although there are several other minor geologic formations in the High Plains Aquifer System, such as the Tertiary Brule and Arikaree and the Dakota formations of the Cretaceous, these several units are often referred to as the Ogallala Aquifer.


Seriously dude, are you incapable or just unwilling to do any research ??? The pipeline was moved away from the Ogallala Aquifer last November.

Non-issue.


Seriously dude, are you incapable of research, or simply unwilling.

"The first Keystone tar sands pipeline, constructed less than a year ago, has sprung its twelfth leak, spilling up to 2,100 gallons of raw tar sands crude oil in Kansas on May 29th when a pipeline fitting around a pressure transmitter failed. This comes just three weeks after a broken pipe fitting on Keystone resulted in a 60’ geyser of tar sands crude, spewing 21,000 gallons in North Dakota. "

Seriously dude.........you're going to have to do better than a blog.
 
They aren't going to put chunks of this bitumen in rail cars....... that's propaganda.

Why would they put "chunks" of bitumen in the rail cars ???? They will be putting liquid bitumen in them, the same stuff that would have been flowing through the pipeline.
 
What do you think would happen to the oil when it reached the Gulf Coast? Are they going to use it all in Biloxi?

Refine it into a thousand different products.
 
Seriously dude, are you incapable or just unwilling to do any research ??? The pipeline was moved away from the Ogallala Aquifer last November.

Non-issue.

I would recommend you look at the TransCanada website...then attempt to state the above again.
Keystone Pipeline Map




Seriously dude.........you're going to have to do better than a blog.

I take it you decided not to read the information because it says "Blog" in the link, perhaps you might actually open it?
 
Back
Top Bottom