Keystone oil sands pipeline rejected

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
And yet your link is only to a liberal environmental group called Policy Innovations. Did you mistype the link or fail to put a link to Valero claiming what you think ??

I think, and I believe most Americans agree, that the more oil on the market, the better for all of us. Obama will be hammered on this for the next 10 months.

There won't be MORE oil.. This will be the same bitumen that was processed in out Mid West refineries.

Gill · Feb 2, 2012

sharon said:
There won't be MORE oil.. This will be the same bitumen that was processed in out Mid West refineries.

Yes, it will be MORE oil. Why would they spend billions of dollars to build a new pipeline if not to increase capacity.

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
Yes, it will be MORE oil. Why would they spend billions of dollars to build a new pipeline if not to increase capacity.

To sell it out of the Free Trade Zone in Texas to more lucrative overseas markets.

Gill · Feb 2, 2012

sharon said:
To sell it out of the Free Trade Zone in Texas to more lucrative overseas markets.

You and others keep making that claim, but have yet to offer a shred of evidence other than hysterics from environmental groups.

Midwest refineries are at capacity from Canadian tar sand oil and are expanding. All refineries can't refine the heavy oil produced from tar sands. The next closest ones are on the Gulf Coast.

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
You and others keep making that claim, but have yet to offer a shred of evidence other than hysterics from environmental groups.

Midwest refineries are at capacity from Canadian tar sand oil and are expanding. All refineries can't refine the heavy oil produced from tar sands. The next closest ones are on the Gulf Coast.

This takes advantage of NAFTA and the Free Trade zone.. its to avoid taxes and make profits.

Yes there are 3 refineries in the Mid West that refine this bitumen.. they geared up to do so in 2007-2008.

Go to Valero's website..... I think I posted iit pages ago.

Gill · Feb 2, 2012

sharon said:
This takes advantage of NAFTA and the Free Trade zone.. its to avoid taxes and make profits.

Yes there are 3 refineries in the Mid West that refine this bitumen.. they geared up to do so in 2007-2008.

Go to Valero's website..... I think I posted iit pages ago.

Not according to the Chicago Tribune:

According to the Chicago Tribune, oil refineries across the Midwest are set to expand (see graphic) and are planning on processing heavy crude oil from Canadian tar sands, part of an industry-wide trend to buy more Canadian crude.

Midwest Oil Refineries Gobble Up Canadian Tar Sands, Spew Greenhouse Gasses « It’s Getting Hot In Here

and Reuters ....

NEW YORK, June 24 (Reuters) - Refinery upgrades nearing
completion in the U.S. Midwest may further distort the West
Texas Intermediate crude market as the overhauls will encourage
plants to back out domestic oil in favor of Canadian imports.

WTI has decoupled from the global oil market due to a lack
of transportation infrastructure to move barrels to high-demand
regions on the coasts that forces producers with no access to
alternatives to discount oil to get it to market.

Over the next three years, refinery upgrades will back out
an estimated 230,000 barrels per day of domestic light crude
oil from the Midwestern refining system in favor of Canadian
heavy crude oil, according to a Reuters analysis of the
expansion plans. (See Table 1)

and The Alberta Oil-Energy Sector ......

Valero is far from the only refiner preparing for a flood of Alberta bitumen. As more oil sands output flows through Hardisty – the town bills itself as “Alberta’s Oil Hub” – en route to markets in the U.S., refiners from the Gulf Coast through the Midwest and up to Detroit are spending billions of dollars to refit old plants with additional or brand new coking capacity to handle and process the stuff. The last 25 years in particular have been marked by a seismic shift in the consistency of U.S. oil imports, the Congressional Research Service reports. Imports have grown steadily “heavier” while the average sulfur content of those barrels has increased. The change has forced refiners already facing higher crude prices – and thus, higher input costs – to invest in expensive technology to treat low grade volumes of crude or else exit the business entirely. At the same time, environmental legislation, improving vehicle efficiency standards and excess plant capacity are conspiring with soft demand for refined petroleum products at home to dim the sector’s long-term prospects.

U.S. refiners turn to heavy oil amid pipeline crunch | Alberta Oil – Energy Sector Insight

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

I know.. I posted that link earlier... It was written in 2008............

Gill said:
Not according to the Chicago Tribune:

Midwest Oil Refineries Gobble Up Canadian Tar Sands, Spew Greenhouse Gasses « It’s Getting Hot In Here

View attachment 67121945

and Reuters ....

and The Alberta Oil-Energy Sector ......

U.S. refiners turn to heavy oil amid pipeline crunch | Alberta Oil – Energy Sector Insight

Gary · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
We can stop here, because that's all you have.

What evidence have you used to support your position besides hot air?

Since the Keystone XL pipelines are going to the Texas refineries, what are they going to do with the product? You obviously don't know how gasoline is distributed and the logistics of doing business with bulk materials. If they're exporting the gasoline now for the existing Keystone Pipeline development, they're going to export that additional supply. What they are doing now is bringing down Canadian bitumen from tar sands to refineries in the plains, where the market was once serviced by gulf production and refineries and selling off the product from the gulf refineries to foreign markets.

The opinion is why the U.S. refineries are exporting gasoline and it's reasonable for them to compete with Venezuela. The fact that our refineries are exporting and are going to export isn't an opinion. Venezuela refinery capacity is 50% higher than their oil production, so why does Venezuela have that capacity to refine crude, if they plan on exporting the crude? Why did they go to the expense to build it? If Venezuela is going to sell gasoline, it has to do it locally. Selling gasoline, kerosene, diesel and aviation fuel is selling a value added product and a nation wanting to make money sells value added products and not bulk materials, like a third world country.

List of oil refineries

Venezuela

Paraguana Refinery Complex (CRP) (PDVSA) 956,000 bbl/d (152,000 m3/d) (Amuay-Cardón-Bajo Grande) (start-up 1997) Amuay Refinery (CRP) (PDVSA) 635,000 bbl/d (101,000 m3/d) (start-up 1950)

Cardón Refinery (CRP) (PDVSA) 305,000 bbl/d (48,500 m3/d) (start-up 1949)

Bajo Grande Refinery (CRP) (PDVSA) 16,000 bbl/d (2,500 m3/d) (start-up 1956)

Puerto La Cruz Refinery (PDVSA) 200,000 bbl/d (32,000 m3/d) (start-up 1948)

El Palito Refinery (PDVSA) 140,000 bbl/d (22,000 m3/d) (start-up 1954)

San Roque Refinery (PDVSA) 5,200 bbl/d (830 m3/d)

Upgraders (Extra Heavy Oil Joint Ventures with PDVSA at Jose)

Petrozuata (PDVSA) 140,000 bbl/d (22,000 m3/d) (start-up 2000)

Operadora Cerro Negro (ExxonMobil, Aral AG, and PDVSA) 120,000 bbl/d (19,000 m3/d) (start-up 2001)

Petrocedeño earlier Sincor (Total S.A., Statoil, and PDVSA) 180,000 bbl/d (29,000 m3/d) (start-up 2001)

Ameriven (ConocoPhillips, ChevronTexaco, and PDVSA) 190,000 bbl/d (30,000 m3/d) (start-up 2004)

Source: List of oil refineries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you know how to look and add, Venezuela has more refining capacity for crude oil than any other country in North and South America, except the United States.

Gill · Feb 2, 2012

Gary said:
What evidence have you used to support your position besides hot air?

Since the Keystone XL pipelines are going to the Texas refineries, what are they going to do with the product? You obviously don't know how gasoline is distributed and the logistics of doing business with bulk materials. If they're exporting the gasoline now for the existing Keystone Pipeline development, they're going to export that additional supply. What they are doing now is bringing down Canadian bitumen from tar sands to refineries in the plains, where the market was once serviced by gulf production and refineries and selling off the product from the gulf refineries to foreign markets.

The opinion is why the U.S. refineries are exporting gasoline and it's reasonable for them to compete with Venezuela. The fact that our refineries are exporting and are going to export isn't an opinion. Venezuela refinery capacity is 50% higher than their oil production, so why does Venezuela have that capacity to refine crude, if they plan on exporting the crude? Why did they go to the expense to build it? If Venezuela is going to sell gasoline, it has to do it locally. Selling gasoline, kerosene, diesel and aviation fuel is selling a value added product and a nation wanting to make money sells value added products and not bulk materials, like a third world country.

Source: List of oil refineries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you know how to look and add, Venezuela has more refining capacity for crude oil than any other country in North and South America, except the United States.

Look above your post and you'll see a lot of information that I've provided.

Venezuela cannot refine their own oil because it is low quality heavy crude. That's why they send it to us. They have a very low refinery capacity.

liblady · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
Look above your post and you'll see a lot of information that I've provided.

Venezuela cannot refine their own oil because it is low quality heavy crude. That's why they send it to us. They have a very low refinery capacity.

they also have light crude, and are building refineries. they partner with many other entities.

Gary · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
Look above your post and you'll see a lot of information that I've provided.

Venezuela cannot refine their own oil because it is low quality heavy crude. That's why they send it to us. They have a very low refinery capacity.

What do you do, just make **** up?

I just gave you a list of oil refineries in Venezuela and what they can refine.

The Paraguaná Refinery Complex (Spanish: Centro de Refinación de Paraguaná) is a crude oil refinery located in the Venezuelan state Falcón and currently considered the world´s second largest refinery complex, just after Jamnagar Refinery in India. It's the result of the fusion of Amuay Refinery, Bajo Grande Refinery and Cardón Refinery. Nowadays it refines 940 thousand barrels per day (149,000 m3/d). The complex is located in a shared area by the Paraguaná Peninsula in Falcón state and the western coast of Lake Maracaibo in the Zulia state. This complex holds 71% of the refining capacity of Venezuela and it belongs to the state-owned company Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA).

The Cardón Refinery started operations in 1949 with capacity to refine 30 thousand barrels per day (4,800 m3/d), it currently handles 305 thousand barrels per day (48,500 m3/d); the Amuay Refinery started having a capacity of 60 thousand barrels per day (9,500 m3/d) and nowadays it can refine 635 thousand barrels per day (101,000 m3/d) and Bajo Grande Refinery, built by 1956 has the capacity to refine 16 thousand barrels per day (2,500 m3/d).

Source: Paraguaná Refinery Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nowadays it refines 940 thousand barrels per day (149,000 m3/d).

Show me any oil refinery complex in the world that refines that much!

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
Look above your post and you'll see a lot of information that I've provided.

Venezuela cannot refine their own oil because it is low quality heavy crude. That's why they send it to us. They have a very low refinery capacity.

Not only does Venezuela refine their own oil.. they also refine most of Iran's oil.

Gary · Feb 2, 2012

sharon said:
Not only does Venezuela refine their own oil.. they also refine most of Iran's oil.

In a year and a half, we have managed to take away 20 million gallons a day of the Venezuelan gasoline market and we're still going after more.

Gill · Feb 2, 2012

Gary said:
What do you do, just make **** up?

I just gave you a list of oil refineries in Venezuela and what they can refine.

Venezuela refines about half of its oil in Venezuela. The rest is refined in the U.S. and the Caribbean.

Show me any oil refinery complex in the world that refines that much!

Actually, there is a larger one in India.

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gary said:
In a year and a half, we have managed to take away 20 million gallons a day of the Venezuelan gasoline market and we're still going after more.

They don't measure crude oil in gallons.. In 2009 Venezuela only exported 1.75 million barrels per day (bbl/d).. That isn't a lot... and exports have fallen since then.

Venezuela had a 2009 refinery capacity of 1311 thousand barrels a day..

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
Venezuela refines about half of its oil in Venezuela. The rest is refined in the U.S. and the Caribbean.

Actually, there is a larger one in India.

And an even larger few in Saudi Arabia.

Gary · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
Venezuela refines about half of its oil in Venezuela. The rest is refined in the U.S. and the Caribbean.

Actually, there is a larger one in India.

It's good to know you can read one of my quotes, but the question was refine and not refinery capacity. I told you our strategy was to go after the Venezuelan market and it is. Venezuela is weak in it's ability to export crude and is strong in it's ability to refine crude, whether it's theirs or not. All the crude or product, like gasoline, in the world doesn't do you any good, if you can't sell it.

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gary said:
It's good to know you can read one of my quotes, but the question was refine and not refinery capacity. I told you our strategy was to go after the Venezuelan market and it is. Venezuela is weak in it's ability to export crude and is strong in it's ability to refine crude, whether it's theirs or not. All the crude or product, like gasoline, in the world doesn't do you any good, if you can't sell it.

Iran buys $6 billion a year in gasoline.. most of it refined in VZ.............

Gary · Feb 2, 2012

sharon said:
They don't measure crude oil in gallons.. In 2009 Venezuela only exported 1.75 million barrels per day (bbl/d).. That isn't a lot... and exports have fallen since then.

Venezuela had a 2009 refinery capacity of 1311 thousand barrels a day..

I converted the year and a half increase of our exports of gasoline to gallons, so it could be easily understood in terms of dollars.

I just gave a list of Venezuelan refinery capacity and it's much more than that.

Gill · Feb 2, 2012

sharon said:
Not only does Venezuela refine their own oil.. they also refine most of Iran's oil.

Not sure if that's true or not..........can't find any reference to Venezuelan refining oil for Iran, but they do send gas to them.

Venezuela has a lot of refinery capacity, but they can't refine the heavy crude they produce efficiently. That's why they send most of it to the U.S. who has efficient and complex refineries that can handle the crappy crude from Venezuela.

Karl · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
sharon said:

sharon said:

There won't be MORE oil.. This will be the same bitumen that was processed in out Mid West refineries.

Click to expand...

To sell it out of the Free Trade Zone in Texas to more lucrative overseas markets.

Click to expand...

You and others keep making that claim, but have yet to offer a shred of evidence other than hysterics from environmental groups.

Any evidence that proves the claim will be dismissed as "hysterics from environmental groups." Not because of the quality of the evidence, of course, but because of the source (in other words, truth from an environmental group is not, by your standards, true). If God Himself stated that the claim was true, he would be dismissed as a hysterical environmentalist. Therefore it is impossible for anyone to provide any proof that would meet your standards.

Therefore the following is presented for the benefit of others:

TransCanada recently refused to support a requirement that oil from Keystone XL be dedicated for use in the United States in a recent Congressional hearing.26 In December 2011, Representative Edward Markey asked TransCanada’s President, Alex Pourbaix, to support a condition that would require the oil on Keystone XL to be used in the United States.

Mr. Pourbaix refused, saying that such a requirement would cause refineries to back out of their contracts. 27

Source: http://www.nrdc.org/energy/files/kxlsecurity.pdf

Video: Dec. 2, 2011: Markey questions if Keystone pipeline will really aid in US economic, nat'l security - YouTube

When TransCanada initially proposed Keystone XL to Canadian regulators, the company acknowledged that Keystone XL would increase the cost of Canadian crude by $3 per barrel in the Gulf Coast market and by more than $6 per barrel in the Midwest crude market. (See TransCanada, Western Canadian Crude Supply and Markets. February 12, 2009. Application to the National Energy Board (February 2009), Appendix 3-1, at 28)

http://www.nrdc.org/energy/files/kxlsecurity.pdf

Retired Brigadier General Steven Anderson has announced his strong opposition to the bill recently proposed by Senator Lugar to expedite the Keystone XL pipeline. [...] General Anderson disagreed with Senator Lugar’s assertion that the proposed Keystone XL tar sands pipeline would be good for national security, noting that Keystone XL would act as a pathway for oil to be exported out of the country while doing nothing to solve the core problem - our country's oil dependence. The General concluded that the only way to reduce our reliance on volatile oil markets and unfriendly oil exports is to use less oil.

Retired General: Lugar's Keystone XL bill will reduce U.S. national security | Anthony Swift's Blog | Switchboard, from NRDC

In his final military assignment, he [Brigadier General (Ret.) Steven M. Anderson] served for two years on the Army Staff in the Pentagon as the Director, Operations and Logistics Readiness, Office of the Army Deputy Chief of Staff, G4 (logistics). General (Ret.) Anderson is a 1978 graduate of the US Military Academy at West Point and earned a Masters of Science degree in Operations Research and Systems Analysis Engineering at the Naval Postgraduate School in 1987.

Steven M. Anderson Profile - Forbes.com

Gill · Feb 2, 2012

Gary said:
It's good to know you can read one of my quotes, but the question was refine and not refinery capacity. I told you our strategy was to go after the Venezuelan market and it is. Venezuela is weak in it's ability to export crude and is strong in it's ability to refine crude, whether it's theirs or not. All the crude or product, like gasoline, in the world doesn't do you any good, if you can't sell it.

Wrong... they are not strong in refining oil, at least the oil they produce because it is heavy, sour oil. The refineries they have are inefficient.

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
Wrong... they are not strong in refining oil, at least the oil they produce because it is heavy, sour oil. The refineries they have are inefficient.

Less than half of every gallon of oil becomes gasoline. For heavy crude, like that produced by Venezuela, the number seems to be less than 10%. If a barrel of Arabian or West Texas light sweet crude produces 19.5 gallons of gasoline .

That is offset somewhat, because the remaining 22 gallons may be used to make heating oil, diesel or plastics. http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99288.ht...

Gary · Feb 2, 2012

Gill said:
Wrong... they are not strong in refining oil, at least the oil they produce because it is heavy, sour oil. The refineries they have are inefficient.

If you have something to say, back it up with figures from the EIA!

You can find out how much crude we import from Venezuela or just about any fact about energy.

When we quadruple our exports of gasoline in a year and a half, there is a reason for that change. It should be obvious, they are putting economic pressure on Iran and Venezuela.

The argument that those tar sands are used to benefit our country with a larger supply of oil doesn't stand up to the facts of what is presently happening. The crude that makes the gasoline we are exporting doesn't come from tar sands.

sharon · Feb 2, 2012

Gary said:
If you have something to say, back it up with figures from the EIA!

You can find out how much crude we import from Venezuela or just about any fact about energy.

When we quadruple our exports of gasoline in a year and a half, there is a reason for that change. It should be obvious, they are putting economic pressure on Iran and Venezuela.

The argument that those tar sands are used to benefit our country with a larger supply of oil doesn't stand up to the facts of what is presently happening. The crude that makes the gasoline we are exporting doesn't come from tar sands.

In 2009 Venezuela only exported 1.75 million barrels per day (bbl/d).. That isn't a lot... and exports have fallen since then.

Keystone oil sands pipeline rejected

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