Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

from j-mac

To attempt to uncouple, or deny that the DoI, has any relationship to the Constitution is an utterly dishonest, and frankly transparent, insulting track for you to take in making your argument that the Obama administration can just wave a hand and take what he wants. Including taxation.

Congratulations. You seem to have discovered the error of your ways. So now you and I and everyone else here knows that you made a fundamental mistake in quoting language from the Declaration of Independence as being one of the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. Wonderful. That is called progress.

Where did I deny the existence of the DofI? It is the birth announcement of the USA. I respect it as such.

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Dickieboy said:
Given your premise:

Well Greg, Wesley paid 35% his salary, JUST LIKE YOU, which he then put at risk in investments. The inducement for Wesley to invest the amount sufficient to yield the $800k in profits was these reduced rates. He could have invested them in tax free municipal bonds which would be less risky and not incurred any tax liability but he would have not realized such a large gain and would have done less to increase the productivity of the economy AND increased government borrowing with would further redirect capital from the general economy.

Greg now that you have $800k you should discuss with Wesley how to invest your money as it appears he is pretty good at it. If you as successful the you TOO can realize this increase in income at the 15% rate and contribute to overall economic growth just the same.

Of course Greg, you COULD go on a public forum and piss and moan enviously about how the ‘system is rigged’ for people like Wesley and it is SO UNFAIR.

None of that provides any logical reason why a person making $88K in salary and paying 35% should support a tax rate on a different individual of only 15% on the same amount of money.

You cannot tell people what to do with their money. Why are you attempting to play God or social engineer and tell somebody how they should allocate their money. It matters not what a person does with that 800K. That is NOT the issue and never has been the issue and to try to pretend it is in intellectually dishonest.

The only issue here is WHY the source of the income should receive a discriminatory preference which is a tax break of far more than half compared to that of a salaried income.

j-mac · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

This tells you infinitely more than your chart which is rather empty of actual meaning.

What is the effect of a lower tax rate?[/QUOTE]

Man you libs are real pieces of work...One supposed tax policy center is debunked due to their ties to Center for American Progress, and what do we get? Another one linked to the same people....HA....Lib arguments are jokes.

j-mac

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Centinel said:
If we are going to tax incomes and capital gains income, they should both be taxed at 15%.

Of course, my first choice would not to have taxes on income at all. But, you know, baby steps...

So you will accept a little bit of what you deem to be evil? Interesting value system you have. 35% is evil but 15% is slightly less evil? Interesting.

I wonder if rapists would follow that dictum and only penetrate halfway would that excuse stand up in court?

j-mac · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
So you will accept a little bit of what you deem to be evil? Interesting value system you have. 35% is evil but 15% is slightly less evil? Interesting.

I wonder if rapists would follow that dictum and only penetrate halfway would that excuse stand up in court?

Now Romney is a rapist?

j-mac

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

from Mike 2810

Haymarket/other who support the position.

Please provide evidence that your stance on taxing will grow the economy and provide more jobs than the current regulations.

I do not remember saying that I knew it would. Although history shows that it can happen that way as the tax increases under Clinton showed.

Please provide evidence that Congress has violated laws by establishing the current tax system we have.

I never said they did. My argument is NOT the statist argument. Please do not confuse it.

Stating all type of income should be taxed at the same rate is not an answer, its an opinion.

It certainly is an answer to the problem of a discriminatory and preferential tax rate for capital gains which primarilly benefits the wealthy over average working people.

Stating the average American does not have disposable income to take advantage of all of the tax rules is not an answer, its an opinion.

It most certainly is the answer as to why the average worker making an average salary cannot accumulate capital gains like the wealthy can so they benefit proportionately. Thats basic math.

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:
Now Romney is a rapist?

j-mac

Where did you get that from?

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:
This tells you infinitely more than your chart which is rather empty of actual meaning.

What is the effect of a lower tax rate?

Man you libs are real pieces of work...One supposed tax policy center is debunked due to their ties to Center for American Progress, and what do we get? Another one linked to the same people....HA....Lib arguments are jokes.

j-mac

[/QUOTE]

So tell us where their figures are wrong rather than attack them because they do not drink your kool-aid or prostrate themselves before the same altar you do.

FilmFestGuy · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Samhain said:
A Robber baron was someone charging a toll on a river.

Its term has now been updated to reflect a businessman who gained his fortune through questionable, read illegal, practices.

Applying the term to Romney makes 0 sense.

Not illegal - unethical - practices.

It is questionably legal to set up shell companies in the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, and other overseas tax shelters - and this is something Bain did do quite frequently to avoid paying taxes. But most Americans find it unethical.

And I'm going to keep answering until I get a conservative to answer me this: what president most recently signed a bill that made taxes on capital gains identical to the top tax rate for income derived through actual work?

j-mac · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
It certainly is an answer to the problem of a discriminatory and preferential tax rate for capital gains which primarilly benefits the wealthy over average working people.

The bolded portion of this statement is a total and complete lie. I implore hay, or anyone to show where the cap gains laws are discriminatory, or preferential to anyone. It is simply a 15% tax rate. And the fact that haymarket has never addressed this fact, and continues to post this lie, makes him a liar on this part of his line of rhetorical BS.

j-mac

j-mac · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

FilmFestGuy said:
Not illegal - unethical - practices.

It is questionably legal to set up shell companies in the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, and other overseas tax shelters - and this is something Bain did do quite frequently to avoid paying taxes. But most Americans find it unethical.

Hold on here...It doesn't work like that and you know it FFG. Your claim is that the legality is questionable, and imply probably illegal. You need to show now that Bain, or Romney broke any laws concerning business in Cayman, or that he skirted any taxation at all in the tax code illegally. If you can't then no one cares that you want to paint it as torrid....Just stick with the facts.

j-mac

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:
The bolded portion of this statement is a total and complete lie. I implore hay, or anyone to show where the cap gains laws are discriminatory, or preferential to anyone. It is simply a 15% tax rate. And the fact that haymarket has never addressed this fact, and continues to post this lie, makes him a liar on this part of his line of rhetorical BS.

j-mac

taxing capital gains - a source of income which falls predominately to the wealthy and we know that going in - at a rate of 15% while taxing THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY from other sources like salary or wages, its the textbook definition of a preference and a discriminatory policy.

from Merriam-Webster dictionary

DISCRIMINATION

Definition of DISCRIMINATION

1
a : the act of discriminating
b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently
2
: the quality or power of finely distinguishing
3
a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually

That is exactly what the government is doing down to the letter. How any rational person can deny it is beyond puzzling.

Dickieboy · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
None of that provides any logical reason why a person making $88K in salary and paying 35% should support a tax rate on a different individual of only 15% on the same amount of money.

I expected this response from you. What you state above is NOT what you challenged us to do:

haymarket said:
“Please explain to Bartlet why he should support a national tax policy which has him paying over twice as much more in federal income taxes than another American who earns the exact same amount as he did.

Kind of appears that you have moved the goal post…

You cannot tell people what to do with their money. Why are you attempting to play God or social engineer and tell somebody how they should allocate their money. It matters not what a person does with that 800K. That is NOT the issue and never has been the issue and to try to pretend it is in intellectually dishonest.

Please show where I told ‘Bartlet’ what to do with his money. I stated “he should discuss” which in no way “tells (sic) people what to do with their money” or is “attempting to play God or social engineer and tell somebody how they should allocate their money” (really 'over-the-top' response imho).

The only issue here is WHY the source of the income should receive a discriminatory preference which is a tax break of far more than half compared to that of a salaried income.

So, as I stated previously, your opinion is ‘you COULD go on a public forum and piss and moan enviously about how the ‘system is rigged’ for people like Wesley and it is SO UNFAIR.”…or what?

Centinel · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
So you will accept a little bit of what you deem to be evil? Interesting value system you have. 35% is evil but 15% is slightly less evil? Interesting.

Yes sir. Any lowering of tax rates is a good thing in my book. The less the takers take, the better. Less injustice is better than more injustice. I will applaud ANY reduction in taxes.

I wonder if rapists would follow that dictum and only penetrate halfway would that excuse stand up in court?

I'm not the taker here, you are. I'm not the one asking for either 35% or 15%. I advocate taking 0%. But I do advocate that the takers reduce their taking. I would prefer that they take 15% to 35%, just as I would prefer that a rapist rape fewer victims.

j-mac · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
taxing capital gains - a source of income which falls predominately to the wealthy and we know that going in

Bull ****! Can anyone have a capital gain?

at a rate of 15% while taxing THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY from other sources like salary or wages, its the textbook definition of a preference and a discriminatory policy.

No they are inherently different. One is from wages, and one from investment. Two different things....Now stop lying.

j-mac

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Dickieboy said:
I expected this response from you. What you state above is NOT what you challenged us to do:

Kind of appears that you have moved the goal post…

Please show where I told ‘Bartlet’ what to do with his money. I stated “he should discuss” which in no way “tells (sic) people what to do with their money” or is “attempting to play God or social engineer and tell somebody how they should allocate their money” (really 'over-the-top' response imho).

So, as I stated previously, your opinion is ‘you COULD go on a public forum and piss and moan enviously about how the ‘system is rigged’ for people like Wesley and it is SO UNFAIR.”…or what?

baloney. I never move any goalposts. I challenged you to explain to Bartlett why he should support those discriminatory preferences and your advice amounted to he should take advantage of them too.

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Centinel said:
Yes sir. Any lowering of tax rates is a good thing in my book. The less the takers take, the better. Less injustice is better than more injustice. I will applaud ANY reduction in taxes.

I'm not the taker here, you are. I'm not the one asking for either 35% or 15%. I advocate taking 0%. But I do advocate that the takers reduce their taking. I would prefer that they take 15% to 35%, just as I would prefer that a rapist rape fewer victims.

You just advocated 15%

haymarket · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:
Bull ****! Can anyone have a capital gain?

No they are inherently different. One is from wages, and one from investment. Two different things....Now stop lying.

j-mac

In theory, anyone can own an airplane or a 50 room mansion.

So what?

reality and who actually beneifts from Capital gains discriminatory rates paint a very different picture.

Lying!?!?!?!?!? So please tell us how $800 K from wages is different than $800K in capital gains income. If we put them in two different piles we they look differently? Smell differently? Do they spend differently?

Centinel · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
You just advocated 15%

Absolutely. 15% is a good step towards 0%.

Dickieboy · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
baloney. I never move any goalposts. I challenged you to explain to Bartlett why he should support those discriminatory preferences and your advice amounted to he should take advantage of them too.

And why shouldn't he? Is there a law against it? And since it was HIS HARD WORK that yeilded the $800k in salary shouldn't he now be able to enjoy the fruit of his labor? Since he now is in the 1% he is not the 'discriminated' class. Why would YOU want to deprive him the JUST reward for HIS hard work?

Dickieboy · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
In theory, anyone can own an airplane or a 50 room mansion.
So what?

So it reveals that it is NOT discriminatory. But of course opinions vary as I pointed out previously and is obvious.

Lying!?!?!?!?!? So please tell us how $800 K from wages is different than $800K in capital gains income. If we put them in two different piles we they look differently? Smell differently? Do they spend differently?

Well no $800k is $800k. But if I made $800k in wages then invested it, kicked back and profited $800k in cap gains on it I would then have $1.2m. If I had worked hard and made another $800k in wages I would have $1.04m. So yes, in the end they DO spend differently as the net sum is greater.

j-mac · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
In theory, anyone can own an airplane or a 50 room mansion.

So what?

So what? Anyone can have a capital gain, that is what you just said, even though you tried to diminish the significance of that revelation from you by being snarky about it. The fact remains that ANYONE can enjoy a capital gain. Which means that the Tax on a capital gain for you is the same for Romney on his capital gain. So your claim of it being discriminatory is patently false. Therefore, a lie.

Lying!?!?!?!?!? So please tell us how $800 K from wages is different than $800K in capital gains income. If we put them in two different piles we they look differently? Smell differently? Do they spend differently?

I think you fully understand the how of why your path with this is deceitful. However, if you truly don't then I suggest you educate yourself on the difference between wage, and investment.

I will however provide you with this...

Between June 1981 and December 1986, the federal government allowed taxpayers to exclude 60 percent of capital gains from taxation. However, the Tax Reform Act of 1986 eliminated this exclusion, raising the maximum capital gains tax rate from 20 to 28 percent, a 40 percent increase. The increase was largest for middle income taxpayers, whose tax rate increased from 8.7 to 15 percent, a 72 percent increase. A capital gains tax reduction would help promote economic growth, benefit taxpayers across the income spectrum, and mitigate the unfair effects of taxing inflation-generated gains.

The Economic Effects of Capital Gains Taxation

This was the finding of our elected representatives. So, from this point on if you continue to label this falsely, I will continue to call you on it every time. Your lie will not stand.

j-mac

Catawba · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba - Neither he, nor the GOP can answer why the working class should vote to continue the tax cuts for the wealthy.

Centinel said:
They shouldn't.

Thanks for being honest. The majority of Americans agree!

mike2810 · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:
The problem, in my view, isn't people who work for a living, even if they make a boatload of money doing it, it is the tax loophole for investors. An investor who makes $400m pays only 15% capital gains tax on it despite making 1,000 times more than the guy above. That's the issue.

No, I advocate that investors should pay the same tax rates as people who work.

May be nitpicking but its not a loophole, its current policy.
Since you seem to advocate everthing should be taxed the same as far a income, are you in in favor of all interest being paid at the same rate., so everyone gets the same interest rate no matter the amount of deposit?

teamosil · Jan 23, 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

mike2810 said:
May be nitpicking but its not a loophole, its current policy.
Since you seem to advocate everthing should be taxed the same as far a income, are you in in favor of all interest being paid at the same rate., so everyone gets the same interest rate no matter the amount of deposit?

To be more precise, my position is that all types of income should be taxed on the same rate scale. Just treat all income alike and use the tax rates we use for wages for all of it. So, interest income would just be added on to whatever wages or investment income you have, that'd be your total income, and you'd be taxed the same way as if it had all been wages.

Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

Disappointed Evolutionist