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Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

They only call it class warfare when we fight back.


Fight back??? Are you kidding here? You already have nearly half the country paying NO Federal income tax what so ever, and 45 MILLION on food stamps.

Why don't you liberal progressives let the "poor" off of the Plantation of poverty that you keep them on for a vote, and let them be self sufficient....This rhetoric of demonizing wealth, and heck even making a living in today's Obama wasteland is already wearing thin, and making you all look foolish.


j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

The tax returns would not only show how much he pays in FIT, but it would also show where he earned the money. There are reports he still gets money from Bain Capital.


Romney should release his tax records as soon as Obama releases his Collage transcripts, and donor list from the '08 elections.


j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

They really should have added Obama's past tax returns to this. I think he was around 33% in 2010, but don't quote me on this.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Oh dear god I'm getting taxed twice not only when I pay income tax but also when I pay sales tax!

at one point you could deduct sales taxes from your federal income tax. Of course that involved an actual separate transaction
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Your assumption is that benefit can be measured in a straight-line calculation, which is obviously not the case.

an interesting way of admitting the claim that the rich "pull more benefits" from society is pure bunk but I agree with you.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Even if part of that $53k does go to thinks like tools, a business is still a lot better off in a society where the workers produce so much value that the company can afford to buy expensive tools though, right?

For a point of comparison, how much luck do you think Bill Gates would have had launching Microsoft in Somalia? Not much. The reason is because all the things a society needs to sustain a company like Microsoft exist here, but not there. Those things take money to maintain.

I don't buy the base dollar amount argument. Or rather I think that is an argument why taxes should be MORE progressive, not less. It isn't like Romney created that money. If there were no Mitt Romney, it wouldn't just be like that money didn't exist. Maybe some of it- the money he actually produced with his own actual work. But the vast majority of it would still exist, it'd just be in somebody else's pocket. Bain would have had a different CEO, or some of those companies he shut down would still be paying people's paychecks, or who knows what, but the money would still be out there. So when he pays 15% and somebody else pays 30%, it isn't like we're benefiting from Romney paying 15%, we're losing 15% that we would have gotten in taxes had that other person ended up with the money instead of him.

Well, a partial reroll then. Their advantages relative to the homeless guy are radically diminished without law and order. All their money- which is really just numbers in a computer somewhere- doesn't even necessarily mean anything at all without a system of laws. Probably their only real advantage would be that there would probably be more to barter with in Gates' mansion than the homeless guy has in his cart. But then again, the homeless guy is better at finding food...

Amazon paid 4% taxes... So basically no taxes. Despite a $3.5 billion profit.

The 16 Profitable Companies That Pay Almost Nothing In Taxes

I don't know how much my grandmother paid... Safe bet it is a much higher percentage than that although obviously a lower absolute amount.

I support eliminating the sales tax because it is regressive relative to income.

Forgive me not breaking it up by quotes, I'm in the airport at the moment.

On the 53k issue, I still need to reference the CBO, so understand this information is still based on the assumption that the calculations are the same as last time I researched. The problem is that supplying tools, an environment, advertising, and everything else drastically reduces that 53k. The way they make money is by having many people produce the 97k and even if it costs them 96k in supplies, tools, man hours, etc they still make 1k for that worker and have 200 workers. This is an extreme example, but it doesn't mean they have 53k going in their pockets instead of to the employees. The 200k they keep is the advantage of being the owner.

Bill Gates is only one person. He is in the .001% of the country. Using him as an example is flawed. But if we are going to talk about the class of people in the top 1%, there is still a guy named Musa Ahmed Sheikh in that country who made over 12 billion with petroleum engineering. There will always be a top 1% of earners and they will do it by getting the right commodity at the right time. Though, I don't like Bill Gates' tactics, just for a note. I like that a free market gives me the choice to use Android or Linux as an acceptable substitute.

Even if there was no Mitt Romney, there would be someone else in the same tax bracket. The 1% is not the same group of people at all times. Someone has a great idea and moves ahead of someone who was in the 1% all the time. That person would still hold a bunch of wealth and pay the same rates.

As for the 15% vs 30% and such, the dollar amounts really do matter. It's progressive in that when they make more, they pay more. They pay VASTLY more every year. They aren't getting off free. I still have trouble with the very idea that 1% of the people pay 38% percent of the total federal income tax revenue and people are saying it isn't progressive enough. This may have to be an agree to disagree situation.

Personal income tax does not equal corporate income tax for many reasons. Any point I make based on that comparison would become a huge debate. The Amazon point is much more in-depth than a footnote. I would like to see corporate taxes moved largely to income tax since it's currently passed on to the consumer and ends up being a sales tax, which you call regressive.

The reroll hypothetical is too much of an imagination game for a proper debate imo, so I won't get into it except to say your point has some merit, but I don't accept it absolutely.

I wouldn't argue getting rid of sales tax, actually. In fact, I think you and I would probably agree on my basic approach to tax reform, but we'd get caught up in a few details on lines. Let me summarize it and see if you agree. I think all current taxes should be stopped. One single income tax should be implemented for federal and each state can have one. Eliminate all tax breaks. Capital gains is income, too. Income taxes come out of pay for work done or gains on investments. Here's the fun part: progressive is required for this to work. Make it progressive %-wise in brackets. Make a thousand brackets if you want, but the percent calculation is very simple.

I think we would fall out over where the brackets should lie in the details, but we both think it should be progressive and that the current breaks system is ridiculous. Am I correct in this? I hate how much politics and shady numbers come into all these debates when it could be as simple as Buffet pays 17% but his secretary pays 11%. It's clear who contributes what.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Jan 17, 2012 is the day the Romney Campaign stepped in it...

Remember folks, he doesn't really make any money on speaking fees!!

$374,000

All those unemployed people in S.C. are can really relate with that...
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

I can think of one thing that lowers his effective tax burden if hes a dutiful Mormon as he claims to be, they require a 10% tithe of income. Thats a pretty hefty writeoff.

Maggie said it early in the thread, his property taxes are probably the equivalent of a median income salary, his sales taxes possibly in the same range and as an employer hes got other taxes hes paying as well. Should his effective rate be higher? I dont know without a detailed look at his dedeuctions, income and hedges to taxation.

DO we need to reduce taxation hedges? Absolutely. Start by counting stock options as salary with immediate wage taxes payable on them but (and this one will make the liberals here scream) lower the capital gains--tax them once as income, then largely leave them alone. That ought to shut Buffet the **** up, too. Thats my opinion anyway.
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Jan 17, 2012 is the day the Romney Campaign stepped in it...

Remember folks, he doesn't really make any money on speaking fees!!

$374,000

All those unemployed people in S.C. are can really relate with that...

What is your point?
So guess Obama should not make money on books, Pelosi should not make money on stocks.
Here is a clue, most politicians in Congress are better off than the average American.
To harp on one person or one party is plain ignoring the real world.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

I can think of one thing that lowers his effective tax burden if hes a dutiful Mormon as he claims to be, they require a 10% tithe of income. Thats a pretty hefty writeoff.

Maggie said it early in the thread, his property taxes are probably the equivalent of a median income salary, his sales taxes possibly in the same range and as an employer hes got other taxes hes paying as well. Should his effective rate be higher? I dont know without a detailed look at his dedeuctions, income and hedges to taxation.

DO we need to reduce taxation hedges? Absolutely. Start by counting stock options as salary with immediate wage taxes payable on them but (and this one will make the liberals here scream) lower the capital gains--tax them once as income, then largely leave them alone. That ought to shut Buffet the **** up, too. Thats my opinion anyway.

Not bad. I like the fact it promotes investment. People will still freak out that a hedge fund guy who lives on dividends alone will be making far more.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Jan 17, 2012 is the day the Romney Campaign stepped in it...

Remember folks, he doesn't really make any money on speaking fees!!

$374,000

All those unemployed people in S.C. are can really relate with that...

Yep, especially the ones that had planned on working at the new Boeing plant that Obama killed.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

what a particularly stupid slogan. How, precisely, does investing in American businesses constitute attacking the middle class?

That's not what the slogan refers to. Nice straw man.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Yep, especially the ones that had planned on working at the new Boeing plant that Obama killed.

Um, that plant is alive and well last time I checked. Did you hear something we didn't?

And Boeing didn't actually create any jobs. It just moved them to a state where it could pay workers less. So it's a net loss for workers, and consumer spending. Good for Boeing's shareholders though.
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Um, that plant is alive and well last time I checked. Did you hear something we didn't?

And Boeing didn't actually create any jobs. It just moved them to a state where it could pay workers less. So it's a net loss for workers, and consumer spending. Good for Boeing's shareholders though.

Your statement may not be valid. Cost of living is not equal across the States or even within a State. My income in a farm town (Wray, CO) would allow me live well above the average. I could not survive very well in SF, California. So it boils down is what will your income buy your where you live.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

What is your point?
So guess Obama should not make money on books, Pelosi should not make money on stocks.
Here is a clue, most politicians in Congress are better off than the average American.
To harp on one person or one party is plain ignoring the real world.

The point is not the money he made, but how he characterized it. He wants to come off as a regular guy and that doesn't work so well when you refer to $374k as "not very much" money -- when it's obviously a ****lot of money to 99% of the people.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Your statement may not be valid. Cost of living is not equal across the States or even within a State. My income in a farm town (Wray, CO) would allow me live well above the average. I could not survive very well in SF, California. So it boils down is what will your income buy your where you live.

That's a fair point. Though part of the reason costs are lower is that other workers are paid less too.

But the larger point is - the plant is still there, but it didn't really create new jobs.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Not true. If he earns a salary (which he does), he pays FICA just like everyone else. If his state requires he chip in on unemployment, he does that, too. (In Illinois, employees don't pay into that fund. Employer pays it all.) Disability? You only pay disability insurance premiums if you choose to.

Then you go on to gripe about how much sales tax he pays. More than you, I'll bet....since he spends a whole lot more. Property tax? He probably pays a fortune in property taxes, depending upon the cost of his home. Etc. "So in effect, they don't really pay those either." Logic fail.



Why do you think Warren Buffett (the left's hero) pays a lesser percentage than his secretary? He pays himself only $100K in annual salary and takes the rest as dividends...or perhaps stock options. Hypocrite, that one.

As to Romney? When he "revealed he pays about 15% in taxes," he was talking about his effective tax rate; not his tax bracket. Compare that to yours. Yours is probably closer to 5%. Take the total amount of income tax you paid last year (don't count Social Security) and divide that number by your Adjusted Gross Income. (If you even paid any income tax last year....since 47% of "taxpayers" paid none at all.

maggie, romney's income is made up of dividends and capital gains. those are taxed at 15%. I am taxed at higher than 15%. so he really DOES pay a much lower percentage of his total income in federal taxes than I do. THAT'S what is ****ed up.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Um, that plant is alive and well last time I checked. Did you hear something we didn't?

And Boeing didn't actually create any jobs. It just moved them to a state where it could pay workers less. So it's a net loss for workers, and consumer spending. Good for Boeing's shareholders though.

Yeah, until the courts rule on the NLRB ruling. If they decide the NLRB was within its rights, the Dreamliner can no longer be assembled in South Carolina.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

As for the 15% vs 30% and such, the dollar amounts really do matter. It's progressive in that when they make more, they pay more. They pay VASTLY more every year. They aren't getting off free. I still have trouble with the very idea that 1% of the people pay 38% percent of the total federal income tax revenue and people are saying it isn't progressive enough. This may have to be an agree to disagree situation.

It's true that they're paying more, but the reason they're paying more is that income disparity has been rising rather dramatically for 30 years. To take it to the extreme, let's say that the 1% have 99.9% of the wealth, and they pay a 1% tax, while the other 99% pays no tax. Is that a raw deal for the 1%? Not exactly. They have all the money and are very lightly taxed. That's basically what's been happening. In constant dollars the average rich person is 700% richer now than he or she was in the 70s, and their tax rate is significantly lower than it was.

So yes, it is disturbing that such a small percentage of the country is paying such a large percentage of the taxes, but the fact that their paying such a large percentage is just a symptom of the disturbing rise of income inequality.
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Why do you think Warren Buffett (the left's hero) pays a lesser percentage than his secretary? He pays himself only $100K in annual salary and takes the rest as dividends...or perhaps stock options. Hypocrite, that one.
He's taking advantage of the tax code. Just like Romney is. The difference is Buffet thinks the tax structure should be changed, Romney doesn't give a **** and thinks there's nothing wrong with paying less than his secretary. In fact his tax plan would effectively cut out almost any federal taxes he owes.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

He's taking advantage of the tax code. Just like Romney is. The difference is Buffet thinks the tax structure should be changed, Romney doesn't give a **** and thinks there's nothing wrong with paying less than his secretary. In fact his tax plan would effectively cut out almost any federal taxes he owes.

Buffet would be a lot more credible if his Berkshire Hathaway companies didn't owe taxes dating back 10 years.

He needs to put up or shut up.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Buffet would be a lot more credible if his Berkshire Hathaway companies didn't owe taxes dating back 10 years.

He needs to put up or shut up.

His responsiblity in Berkshire Hathaway is to his shareholders....not his beliefs on the income tax structure in America. He's doing what he's always done...trying to maximize the return to his shareholders.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Yeah, until the courts rule on the NLRB ruling. If they decide the NLRB was within its rights, the Dreamliner can no longer be assembled in South Carolina.

The NLRB already announced it would drop the suit a month ago.

And even if it hadn't been dropped, saying that Obama "killed" the plant was premature and unfair. The NLRB did it, and the suit was dependent on the union complaint (I don't think the NLRB can sue without a complaint, which is why it dropped the suit because the union dropped its complaint, but I'm not sure). And it's not like it was creating new jobs anyway, just moving them from a different state.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Buffet would be a lot more credible if his Berkshire Hathaway companies didn't owe taxes dating back 10 years.

He needs to put up or shut up.

Whether or not Berkshire owes back taxes is under dispute, and has nothing at all to do with Buffet's opinion that he and other billionaires are personally undertaxed.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

The NLRB already announced it would drop the suit a month ago.

And even if it hadn't been dropped, saying that Obama "killed" the plant was premature and unfair. The NLRB did it, and the suit was dependent on the union complaint (I don't think the NLRB can sue without a complaint, which is why it dropped the suit because the union dropped its complaint, but I'm not sure). And it's not like it was creating new jobs anyway, just moving them from a different state.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the post. And, yes, you're right, it is because the union dropped its complaint. Boeing/Union negotiated the first-ever guarantee that an entire production line would be built in Washington. Give/Take. Makes sense to me.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ses-south-carolina-labor-suit-against-boeing/
 
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