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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #351
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This is only an issue for those who make most of their income from investments as Romney did. They are the ones that enjoy a lower tax rate than the middle class.
    The middle class has the same LTCG tax as the wealthy do. People who rely on their investments for income (like most older, retired people such as Romney) pay a 15% capital gains tax on the profits of their invested capital, capital that resulted from their labor which was already taxed at ordinary income
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

  2. #352
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Money he grew on the money tree in the back yard. Who cares? Money is money - income is income. I don't care where it comes from and neither should the government.
    It totally matters, if it came from their own capital, that money was already taxed as income when it was earned. If the returns came from profits in a hedge fund/private equity vehicle that earns profits on investor's money than they are paying 15% tax on new, personal income.

    EDIT: Why do you think the government discriminates by the source of income in the first place? Just to stick it to the little guy?
    Last edited by Rhapsody1447; 01-19-12 at 02:08 PM.
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

  3. #353
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    It totally matters, if it came from their own capital, that money was already taxed as income when it was earned. If the returns came from profits in a hedge fund/private equity vehicle that earns profits on investor's money than they are paying 15% tax on new, personal income.

    EDIT: Why do you think the government discriminates by the source of income in the first place? Just to stick it to the little guy?
    jesus. if they buy a stock at $50 and sell it at $100, they pay 15% on $50. period. it's quite simple, despite your machinations. their money is NOT being taxed twice.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  4. #354
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    The middle class has the same LTCG tax as the wealthy do. People who rely on their investments for income (like most older, retired people such as Romney) pay a 15% capital gains tax on the profits of their invested capital, capital that resulted from their labor which was already taxed at ordinary income
    What labor did Romney do that earned the income he invested????

    As far as seniors being impacted, the percentage is very, very low:

    "The proportion of those with incomes under $100,000 who receive any capital gains or dividend income is quite small. According to the Tax Policy Center, in 2005, only 12.5 percent of the households earning less than $100,000 received dividend income, and only 6.6 percent received any capital gains income.

    Further, focusing on the number of households claiming capital gains and dividend income does not tell the full story; it is much more important to look at the amount of capital gains and dividend income collected by various income groups. Tax Policy Center data for 2005 indicate that the bulk of income from dividends and capital gains flows to high-income households.

    * Over half — 54 percent — of all capital gains and dividend income flows to the 0.2 percent of households with annual incomes over $1 million. More than three-quarters — 78 percent — of this income goes to those households with income over $200,000, which account for about 3 percent of all households.
    * In contrast, only 11 percent of capital gains and dividend income goes to the 86 percent of households with incomes of less than $100,000. Only 4 percent of this income flows to the 64 percent of households that have income of less than $50,000.

    Not only is income from capital gains and dividends heavily concentrated at the top of the income spectrum, but it also represents a larger portion of income for these very well-off households than it does for those of more modest means. New IRS income tax data for 2003 show that income from capital gains and dividends increases steadily as a percentage of total income as household income rises (see Figure 1). For those making less than $100,000, capital gains and dividend income makes up an average of 1.4 percent of total income. For those making over $100,000, this income accounts for 12.2 percent of total income on average; for those making over $1 million, the share rises to an average of 31.4 percent. Thus, the IRS data show that while capital gains and dividend income accounts for nearly one-third of all income for millionaires, it represents a tiny fraction of income for most families."

    Capital Gains and Dividend Tax Cuts — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities


    So tell me the impact a 5% increase would have on the average 1.4% of income from investments by those who make less than $100,000???
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #355
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    Re: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

    That is not what he is arguing at all. The $50 that was used to buy the stock in your example was (probably), income at one point. This income was taxed, regardless of whether it was the %15 or the normal income tax. It is not really a second tax. However, it is income earned from money that was already taxed. Romney could have chosen to spend his money and pay no taxes (beyond sales). Instead, he chose to earn money from it. Anyone can do this, and it helps middle class people saving for retirement just as much as rich folks like Romney. I guarantee most elderly people pay a very similar rate in taxes.

    Secondly, people often confuse marginal and effective tax rates. 15% effective tax is still higher than most Americans (like a huge majority), if you don't count Social Security, etc.

  6. #356
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    Re: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by astein View Post
    That is not what he is arguing at all. The $50 that was used to buy the stock in your example was (probably), income at one point. This income was taxed, regardless of whether it was the %15 or the normal income tax. It is not really a second tax. However, it is income earned from money that was already taxed. Romney could have chosen to spend his money and pay no taxes (beyond sales). Instead, he chose to earn money from it. Anyone can do this, and it helps middle class people saving for retirement just as much as rich folks like Romney. I guarantee most elderly people pay a very similar rate in taxes.

    Secondly, people often confuse marginal and effective tax rates. 15% effective tax is still higher than most Americans (like a huge majority), if you don't count Social Security, etc.
    so what? who cares what generated the income. my EFFECTIVE fed tax rate is higher than 15%. my argument is that cap gains and dividends should be taxed as ordinary income.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    so what? who cares what generated the income. my EFFECTIVE fed tax rate is higher than 15%. my argument is that cap gains and dividends should be taxed as ordinary income.
    It's sad that we've dumbed down. I keep hoping that someday we'll hit bottom. Imagine what would happen to investment. Truly sad!

  8. #358
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    Re: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    It's sad that we've dumbed down. I keep hoping that someday we'll hit bottom. Imagine what would happen to investment. Truly sad!
    perhaps you should explain. are you seriously suggesting that people will put their money in mattresses rather than have to pay more in taxes? so, if their tax increased to, say 35% on cap gains, they would stop investing? lmao, not quite. say they made 500k in cap gains, now, they would realize 425k of those gains when taxed at 15%. at 35%, they would realize 325k. they are willing to forego 325k? i think not.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    perhaps you should explain. are you seriously suggesting that people will put their money in mattresses rather than have to pay more in taxes? so, if their tax increased to, say 35% on cap gains, they would stop investing? lmao, not quite. say they made 500k in cap gains, now, they would realize 425k of those gains when taxed at 15%. at 35%, they would realize 325k. they are willing to forego 325k? i think not.
    First of all, the money has already been taxed (post 351) and as investment there is no guarantee that the money will make money in the first place. Investment, to various degrees is a crap shoot. What is the incentive for people to invest knowing that if money is lost, there will be no compensation (as it should be), but if there is profit more than a third of that will be withheld for the sake of bigger government. Only a fool would put a stake in anything unless there was no chance of loss. Thus, investment would be largely limited to low-yield bonds which would deliver little in capital gains and taxes. I ain't rocket science

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    Re: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

    Why the super rich pay a lower tax rate ~

    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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