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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #331
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I did miss that he said "income taxes", but it works out the same. The other taxes don't really apply to him percentage wise.



    Taxes aren't like prices for buying things. When you're buying things, for every $1 you spend you get $1 back. With taxes different people benefit from the stuff the taxes pay for to different degrees. A wealthy person, by definition, is drawing far more benefit from the society that the taxes maintain. For example, where a middle class person only benefits from their own education, a wealthy person benefits from the educations of all the people that work at companies they own stock in. Wealthy people benefit far more from having a stable economy, from having a strong consumer base, from having a stable currency, from law and order, from the infrastructure, etc. So, to translate that into the "buying things" metaphor, they're getting a lot more things, so they have to pay a lot more, where a working person is getting less things and so they pay less.

    complete speculative crap. Hatuey made a rather well stated argument that rich people benefit society more by their actions but your attempt to justify higher taxes based on usage fails since you would have to argue that ten million paying no taxes use less than One billionaire and guess what, and -no one would make such a claim honestly
    Last edited by TurtleDude; 01-19-12 at 09:03 AM.

  2. #332
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    As Mitt Romney has admitted, and as the fact checking organizations have confirmed, those that get most of their income from investments, like Romney, pay a lower effective tax rate because the tax rate on capital gains is 15%.
    and your point is? that is true with any one who has mainly investment income (dividends having already been taxed once)

  3. #333
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and your point is? that is true with any one who has mainly investment income (dividends having already been taxed once)
    Investment is BAD!! Spend it all, give it away to fools and satisfy immediate gratification! There is no tomorrow!

    People and thus government having a positive balance? What kind of madness doest thou advocate?


    Supporters argue that a consumption tax, such as the FairTax, would have a positive impact on savings and investment (not taxed), ease of tax compliance, increased economic growth, incentives for international business to locate in the U.S., and increased U.S. international competitiveness (border tax adjustment in global trade).[3][4]
    Predicted effects of the FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  4. #334
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    From other investors most likely so they don't have to take any risk themselves, unlike me who used my own money to start my business.
    So all of the "rich" got their capital from other investors and took no risk and you used all of your own capital to start your business? How do you suppose they were able to raise money in the first place?
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

  5. #335
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TNAR View Post
    Tax avoidance is perfectly legal; tax evasion is illegal.
    Yes, that's true. My point is that lowering one's tax bill shouldn't be the only consideration. If you invest $10,000 and get a 10% return, tax free, you've made made $1,000. If you invest the same $10k and get a 30% return, subject to LTCG, you've made $2,550, or about 250% more -- after taxes. Did the second investment result in a higher tax rate? Of course. Was it the better investment? Absolutely.

    The sort of encapsulates the silly complaint that the wealthy are paying so much more in taxes than they used to. They're paying so much more because they're so much richer relative to everyone else -- not because they're paying a higher tax rate. In fact they are paying a lower effective tax rate.

  6. #336
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Investment is BAD!! Spend it all, give it away to fools and satisfy immediate gratification! There is no tomorrow!

    People and thus government having a positive balance? What kind of madness doest thou advocate?

    Predicted effects of the FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Balance is certainly the key. It's not good if people get too leveraged, but it's also not good if people are too conservative in their spending. The Japanese could tell you something about that.

  7. #337
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and your point is? that is true with any one who has mainly investment income (dividends having already been taxed once)
    Exactly, those who derive most of their income from investments pay a lower tax rate, and voters are aware the double taxation claim is a myth:

    The Myth of Double-Taxed Investment Income


    The Wall Street Journal starts with the following complaint about Buffett’s argument that his capital gains and dividend income is insufficiently taxed:

    “What he doesn't say is that much of his income was already taxed once as corporate income, which is assessed at a 35% rate (less deductions). The 15% levy on capital gains and dividends to individuals is thus a double tax that takes the overall tax rate on that corporate income closer to 45%.”

    Anti-tax ideologues often claim that corporate profits are taxed twice, once under the corporate income tax and then again under the personal income tax when the shareholders receive them in the form of capital gains and dividends. There are several fatal flaws in this argument:

    First, many corporate profits are not taxed, as GE, Verizon, Boeing, and many other corporations have demonstrated.

    Second, two thirds of those dividends are actually paid to tax-exempt entities like pension funds or university endowments.

    Third, a capital gain from selling a corporate stock is not necessarily a form of corporate profit. If stock value rises based on some expectation of a future increase in profits (which a drug company might enjoy after the FDA approves a new product, for example) that does not have anything to do with profits that the company has already received or paid taxes on.

    In any case, the capital gains earned outside of tax-exempt plans are not taxed until shareholders sell their corporate stock at a profit, meaning those gains can be deferred indefinitely. Even when shareholders do report capital gains they often offset them with capital losses.

    If one applies the logic of the “double-tax” argument more broadly, one would have to conclude that the wage and salary income of ordinary Americans is subject to several forms of taxes that wealthy investors don’t worry much about. For most Americans, income consists entirely of wages and all of it is subject to Social Security taxes and much or most of it is subject to the federal income tax. Then when people spend their income, a great deal of their purchases are subject to sales taxes.

    Somehow the Wall Street Journal and its devotees only express concern over taxing income multiple times when wealthy investors are involved."
    Warren Buffett Is Right, the Wall Street Journal Is Wrong
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Is the whining about LTCG/Dividend rates based on

    1) a sound economic argument that those forms of income should be subjected to the same tax rates as earned income

    2) envy or spite over the fact that the "wealthy" tend to have a higher proportion of their income from such sources

    reading this and other threads, the answer is obviously #2

    at best, the tax hikers argue that the earned income tax structure is "proper" and base their arguments on that assumption without any analysis

    the other tax hikers merely whine about the rich

  9. #339
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    So all of the "rich" got their capital from other investors and took no risk and you used all of your own capital to start your business? How do you suppose they were able to raise money in the first place?
    Most of the biggest investors invest other peoples money. As far as Romney specifically:

    "One of the reasons Romney is able to drive his tax rate down so low is that he is still earning money from his private equity firm, Bain Capital, that is likely subject to a pernicious tax loophole. This loophole lets wealthy money mangers like Romney pay the capital gains tax rate on profits they make investing other people’s money, turning the justification for having a lower capital gains tax rate completely on its head."


    Romney Admits His Tax Rate Is About 15 Percent, Lower Than Many Middle Class Families | ThinkProgress
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #340
    Sage

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Is the whining about LTCG/Dividend rates based on

    1) a sound economic argument that those forms of income should be subjected to the same tax rates as earned income

    2) envy or spite over the fact that the "wealthy" tend to have a higher proportion of their income from such sources

    reading this and other threads, the answer is obviously #2

    at best, the tax hikers argue that the earned income tax structure is "proper" and base their arguments on that assumption without any analysis

    the other tax hikers merely whine about the rich
    It is quite obvious that the answer if #1. #2 is what you stepped into and cannot shake it off Turtle. We know you believe it but you have NEVER made a real case as to why the rte for long term capital gains should be well less than half for what it is for the same income. You have NEVER done this.

    Again, lets take two people
    1) Ron Jones who is a record producer whose annual salary is $800,000.00. He pays 35%. His tax bill - assuming no deductions - is $280,000.00.
    2) Hank Tonkin who is an investor and who make $800,000.00 last year in long term capital gains. He pays 15%. His tax bill - assuming no dedictions - is $120,000.00.

    Now justify that please? Tell us what a nation of 311 million people, should have such a discriminatory preference as part of our nation tax policy and law.
    Last edited by haymarket; 01-19-12 at 01:19 PM.
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