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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #321
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    As Mitt Romney has admitted, and as the fact checking organizations have confirmed, those that get most of their income from investments, like Romney, pay a lower effective tax rate because the tax rate on capital gains is 15%.
    And where do you figure they get the capital for their investments?
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    And where do you figure they get the capital for their investments?
    From other investors most likely so they don't have to take any risk themselves, unlike me who used my own money to start my business.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #323
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Wage expense is not a business' only expense though. And I also asked you if your numbers account for non-wage benefits. 401(k) matching? Health insurance?
    Yeah, that's total compensation. Median wages are lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    The employees have to be productive enough to cover their own wages and a whole bunch of other business expenses, otherwise the business shuts down.
    Productivity figures aim to be AFTER expenses. So each employee is creating $97k in value for the employer. Some people argue that the expenses they count are too minimal, but their intent is to say how much value each employee adds after all expenses except their salary.

    But, regardless, even if there are some additional expenses not counted, that doesn't change anything. An employer is still benefiting from being able to cover their expenses. A more educated employee is still more valuable to them than a less educated employee. Perhaps the education of their employees just makes them more profitable, perhaps it is that education that allows them to stay in business at all, but either way, they should be chipping in for the education system they're benefiting from.

  4. #324
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Productivity figures aim to be AFTER expenses. So each employee is creating $97k in value for the employer. Some people argue that the expenses they count are too minimal, but their intent is to say how much value each employee adds after all expenses except their salary.

    But, regardless, even if there are some additional expenses not counted, that doesn't change anything.
    Are you ****ing kidding me? It changes everything about what you're talking about. Your claim that the wealthier employers benefit from their employees as though it's some oppressive one-way street are dead in the water because you're imagining the balance sheets and income statements like they're just a few items long.

    An employer is still benefiting from being able to cover their expenses.
    And the employee is benefitting from having a job. He's trading his skills and knowledge and labor for money. It's a contract. You chipping in your judgments of those contracts from the sidelines is irrelevant, and it stinks of envy and entitlement.

    A more educated employee is still more valuable to them than a less educated employee.
    A more productive employee is more valuable to him than a less productive employee.

    Let's say you think your labor is worth $97k to an employer, and I happily offer to do the same job for $44k. Why can't your employer hire me instead of you? If the employer does hire me instead of you, and I do the same job for $44k, then I am clearly the more valuable, regardless of education. That's what "value" is.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 01-19-12 at 02:28 AM.

  5. #325
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Are you ****ing kidding me? It changes everything about what you're talking about. Your claim that the wealthier employers benefit from their employees as though it's some oppressive one-way street are dead in the water because you're imagining the balance sheets and income statements like they're just a few items long.
    Whether it is "oppressive" or whatnot is a different conversation. I'm saying they benefit from the education financially. It seems like I've documented that clearly, no?

    I think you're getting distracted by the numbers. Yeah, they do seem to indicate that employers are screwing employees over. But that isn't my argument here. That has nothing to do with my argument here. So arguing that it is fair or whatever doesn't counter my argument. My argument is just that they draw benefit from the educations of their employees. That's clearly true, since they're keeping or using 55% of the productivity of the employees, and education is a huge variable in productivity. You don't need to think that they're big meanies or whatever to see that.

  6. #326
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Mitt Romney Deserves to Pay Less Taxes Because He's So Rich

    Romney - "What’s the effective rate I’ve been paying? It's probably closer to the 15 percent rate than anything, because my last ten years, I’ve, my income comes overwhelmingly from investments made in the past, rather than ordinary income, rather than earned annual income."

    Citizens for Tax Justice estimates his tax rate at around 14 percent. But, hey, that's "closer to the 15 percent rate" than it is to, say, three percent.

    As Center for American Progress Director of Fiscal Reform Seth Hanlon has explained, the latest data shows that "many middle-class families paid much more [in taxes] than the 17.5 percent average paid by the very rich." When President Obama suggested the "Buffett rule," aimed at ensuring that millionaires can’t pay lower taxes than middle class families, Romney derided it as "class warfare," and "the wrong way to go."

    Mitt Romney Deserves to Pay Less Taxes Because He's So Rich | Indecision Blog | Comedy Central's Indecision | IndecisionForever.com
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-19-12 at 02:36 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #327
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Whether it is "oppressive" or whatnot is a different conversation. I'm saying they benefit from the education financially. It seems like I've documented that clearly, no?
    Yes, you did a great job. They certainly do benefit. But they pay for those benefits. The same way as when you buy something.

    These are the effects of transactions and contracts. Trades that are made between adults who deem it a fair deal. The reason you make trades with people is to get money out of the deal, or to give up money to survive or derive convenience or enjoyment. Most trades involve an exchange of money. Some people use that money to make more money. Or they use whatever they're getting in exchange for money to make more money. These are usually considered fair deals made in good faith. So who cares if employers or rich people "benefit?" Of course they benefit. You say they benefit "more" from society in general. No they don't. They just have more. They make more trades, or smarter trades, or whatever. But they don't benefit more from the set-up just because you're envious of the outcome.

    My argument is just that they draw benefit from the educations of their employees.
    Your argument was that they benefit more from society in general, and you were using this as an example.

    That's clearly true, since they're keeping or using 55% of the productivity of the employees, and education is a huge variable in productivity.
    I think you should go hire a bunch of people. I mean, you get to keep half of what they produce. It's a great deal. You'll "benefit more" from society if you do this. And don't you think, with all the unemployment we have, that they will love you for it?

    There is massive expenditure, complexity, risk, and extremely hard work that go into trying to create and sustain a competitive business. Many people fail terribly in this endeavor and never quite reach what they had hoped. Those who make it are fortunate, but you cannot justifiably say they "benefit more" from society in general by virtue of their outcome. They just as easily could have failed. They pay for things as they work their way up. The reason we advance as a species is because of our drive to take risks and hope the risks pay off, and what drive would there be if there was not incremental benefit? There would be none.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 01-19-12 at 02:56 AM.

  8. #328
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Romney is going through the samething that Obama went through but since Romney is a repub? They rightwingers could care less how much he is getting paid and that he is an elitist. As long as it is one of their own? Everything if fine. Hypocrites..

    This man is so out of touch with the people it is not even funnny. He thinks $374327 for a couple of speaking engagements is chump change. This dude is out of touch with the REAL workers in this country.
    ~Following My Own Flow~

  9. #329
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Romney is going through the samething that Obama went through but since Romney is a repub? They rightwingers could care less how much he is getting paid and that he is an elitist. As long as it is one of their own? Everything if fine. Hypocrites..

    This man is so out of touch with the people it is not even funnny. He thinks $374327 for a couple of speaking engagements is chump change. This dude is out of touch with the REAL workers in this country.
    Ya think?

  10. #330
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Oh boy, TD is going to be so envious.
    The envy is all on your side

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