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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #301
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    FEDERAL
    Right, mine lists total taxes. Not just federal. Just looking at federal is distorting because federal taxes tend to be more progressive where state taxes tend to be more regressive. People in about the bottom 50% pay more state taxes than federal.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TNAR View Post
    I agree with your conclusion but this is not what you said earlier. I just wanted to make sure we were all being honest here.
    I did miss that he said "income taxes", but it works out the same. The other taxes don't really apply to him percentage wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by TNAR View Post
    Taxes are absolutely regressive. But then again so are all prices!
    Taxes aren't like prices for buying things. When you're buying things, for every $1 you spend you get $1 back. With taxes different people benefit from the stuff the taxes pay for to different degrees. A wealthy person, by definition, is drawing far more benefit from the society that the taxes maintain. For example, where a middle class person only benefits from their own education, a wealthy person benefits from the educations of all the people that work at companies they own stock in. Wealthy people benefit far more from having a stable economy, from having a strong consumer base, from having a stable currency, from law and order, from the infrastructure, etc. So, to translate that into the "buying things" metaphor, they're getting a lot more things, so they have to pay a lot more, where a working person is getting less things and so they pay less.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Right, mine lists total taxes. Not just federal. Just looking at federal is distorting because federal taxes tend to be more progressive where state taxes tend to be more regressive. People in about the bottom 50% pay more state taxes than federal.
    You miss the point. Your list includes a column 'Federal Taxes'. This is where the disparity between the numbers is thus my question. I have yet to find another source to corroborate the numbers in your link which I agree is inclusive of ‘all federal, state & local taxes (personal and corporate income, payroll, property, sales, excise, estate etc.)’ as it states. Also consider this data is generated via the ‘Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy Tax Model’. This model while based on a vast collection of data would not necessarily lend itself to Romney’s rate specifically as it is merely an average of ALL data.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil
    A wealthy person, by definition, is drawing far more benefit from the society that the taxes maintain.
    I want what you are smoking!

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil
    For example, where a middle class person only benefits from their own education, a wealthy person benefits from the educations of all the people that work at companies they own stock in. Wealthy people benefit far more from having a stable economy, from having a strong consumer base, from having a stable currency, from law and order, from the infrastructure, etc.
    Everyone benefits from the education of others.
    Everyone benefits from a stable economy.
    Everyone benefits from a strong consumer base.
    Everyone benefits from a stable currency.
    Everyone benefits from law and order.
    Everyone benefits from infrastructure.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    You miss the point. Your list includes a column 'Federal Taxes'. This is where the disparity between the numbers is thus my question. I have yet to find another source to corroborate the numbers in your link which I agree is inclusive of ‘all federal, state & local taxes (personal and corporate income, payroll, property, sales, excise, estate etc.)’ as it states.
    So your numbers show everybody paying federal taxes 3% to 5% higher. So, if we went with your numbers, the average American would be paying approx 31% instead of 27%, so Romney would be even further out of whack.

    My guess would be that yours counts FICA as a tax and mine doesn't. That would give you about that much of a gap. But that's just a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    This model while based on a vast collection of data would not necessarily lend itself to Romney’s rate specifically as it is merely an average of ALL data.
    Yeah, Romney was only talking about income taxes, where my data is about all taxes. But, that doesn't really matter. Income taxes (including cap gains) are the only taxes that would be a meaningful percentage of the income of somebody in Romney's tier. The other taxes are regressive, meaning you pay a lower percentage the more income you make, and Romney's income is extremely high.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    For example, where a middle class person only benefits from their own education, a wealthy person benefits from the educations of all the people that work at companies they own stock in. Wealthy people benefit far more from having a stable economy, from having a strong consumer base, from having a stable currency, from law and order, from the infrastructure, etc. So, to translate that into the "buying things" metaphor, they're getting a lot more things, so they have to pay a lot more, where a working person is getting less things and so they pay less.
    What a bunch of bologna. Rich people have more money in the game. They stand to lose more. They are taking on more risk when they run businesses and hire people. They are paying a larger amount of money in taxes, an ever-growing portion of which is now dedicated to help the poor specifically rather than The People generally. Just because the rich have more does not mean they "benefit more."


    That is a bunch of
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 01-19-12 at 01:24 AM.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TNAR View Post
    Everyone benefits from the education of others.
    Everyone benefits from a stable economy.
    Everyone benefits from a strong consumer base.
    Everyone benefits from a stable currency.
    Everyone benefits from law and order.
    Everyone benefits from infrastructure.
    Not equally, no. For example, amazon.com has benefited more from the internet than my grandmother has, right? A company with 50,000 employees benefits from 50,000 educations. I only benefit from one. Etc.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    I’m having trouble with your link. The CBO report, Effective Federal Tax Rates Under Current Law, 2001 to 2014
    Indicates the 2010 effective FEDERAL tax rates to be first Q- 5.8%, 2nd - 12.3%, 3rd – 16.1%, 4th – 20.5% 5th – 27.1% . The numbers in the column on your link ‘Federal Taxes’ appear to be vastly different. What gives? Which is the more reputable souce?
    This is an apples to oranges comparison. Did you read the note at your link:


    Notes: Effective tax rates are calculated by dividing taxes by comprehensive household income. A household consists of the people who share a housing unit, regardless of their relationships.

    The income measure, comprehensive household income, comprises pretax cash income plus income from other sources. Pretax cash income is the sum of wages, salaries, self-employment income, rents, taxable and nontaxable interest, dividends, realized capital gains, cash transfer payments, and retirement benefits plus taxes paid by businesses (corporate income taxes and the employer's share of Social Security, Medicare, and federal unemployment insurance payroll taxes) and employees' contributions to 401(k) retirement plans. Other sources of income include all in-kind benefits (Medicare, Medicaid, employer-paid health insurance premiums, food stamps, school lunches and breakfasts, housing assistance, and energy assistance). Households with negative income are excluded from the lowest income category but are included in the totals.

    Income categories are defined by ranking all people by their comprehensive household income adjusted for the size of the household--that is, divided by the square root of the household's size. Quintiles, or fifths, contain equal numbers of people.

    Individual income taxes are generally distributed directly to households paying those taxes. Social insurance, or payroll, taxes are distributed to households paying those taxes directly or paying them indirectly through their employers. Corporate income taxes are distributed to households according to their share of capital income. Federal excise taxes are distributed to them according to their consumption of the taxed good or service.

    The calculations of income taxes from 2002 through 2014 are based on the assumption that inflation is 2.2 percent per year and that nominal incomes grow at 4.5 percent per year. Most changes to individual income taxes are estimated by simulating the effects of applicable law on 2001 incomes. The reduced tax rate on dividends is allocated to households according to their share of capital income. The estimated effects of partial expensing are allocated to taxpayers on the basis of capital income and noncorporate business income. See the text for further detail.


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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    What a bunch of bologna. Rich people have more money in the game. They stand to lose more. They are taking on more risk. They are paying a larger amount of money in taxes, an ever-growing portion of which need to be dedicated to help the poor specifically rather than The People generally. Just because they have more does not mean they "benefit more."
    You aren't countering any of my arguments. Do you have responses? For example, how does an employer not benefit from the educations of all their employees?

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You aren't countering any of my arguments. Do you have responses? For example, how does an employer not benefit from the educations of all their employees?
    The employer is paying for what the employees' educations provide his company. You attempt to distinguish this from "buying things..." by saying "When you're buying things, for every $1 you spend you get $1 back." Well, when you employ people, you pay for their KSAs and labor. For every $1 you spend on labor you get... $1 worth of labor.

    You're just making stuff up as you go.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 01-19-12 at 01:31 AM.

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