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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #1721
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You raise some excellent questions. And I join you in wanting those sort of things protected. However, I do think that can be accomplished with a reduction in the overall budget of the D of Ed. I taught for 33 years and I honestly cannot tell you anything they did for the kids I taught.
    Well most government departments can described in this way. Government works behind the scenes and does many things, many things we take for granted and dont associate with government.

    There is a tremendous duplication or even triplication (is that a word?) of effort and data collecting.
    Yes it is a word, and yes it is a problem in any society. Spain for example is the KING of duplication and could save billions if they got rid of it.

    In the end, I would favor a national system like the Japanese have.
    Well that system has not taught the children that the Imperial Japanese Government were butchers.. just saying. But what is the Japanese system exactly?

    That would insure all that you and I want and the duplication at the local level would be eliminated. The conservative goal of cutting costs would thus be achieved. The noble goals you listed would also be achieved.
    So it is not the department it self, but the many layers created because of the way the US was designed... Fine take the states and local governments totally out of the loop, problem solved.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, it's all state and local taxes of all types according to the source. Except there is no such thing as a "death tax"... Perhaps you mean "estate tax"?
    I won't get into the death tax in detail here because we already have plenty to discuss Thank you for replying, I was really too tired to look through.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    This might be the kernel of our disagreement. In my view the fact that people can move states to try to avoid higher taxes is a problem and constitutes a reason that the federal government is better situated than the state governments to tax more progressively. It's what's called a "race to the bottom". States basically can't meaningfully tax rich people because they just move. States end up trying to undercut one another's tax rates to attract rich people and the ultimately result is what we have- regressive taxation at the state level. It's basically impossible for a state to have progressive taxation.

    The classic race to the bottom problem is child labor. Child labor laws used to be solely at the state level. So corporations that wanted cheap labor would set up in whichever state had the slackest child labor laws. States competing for the taxes those corporations would bring kept undercutting one another with more and more. One state would let 14 year olds work in factories, but only for 4 hours a day. Then another would allow 8 hours. Then another would allow 13 years. Then another would say they could work in mines. And so on, lower and lower, until 10 year olds could work 12 hours shifts in coal mines.... Probably virtually nobody actually wanted that to be the law, but competitive pressures forced them to do it. So, the federal government had to step in and set a floor for child labor laws.

    Competition between states is good for some things. For example, maybe one state will try investing heavily in computer oriented education and another will invest heavily in biology oriented education, one will do better than the other, and then the rest of the nation will tend to follow the stronger example. But that only works where the competitive forces are pressuring a state to do better. When it's competition over who can do the worst, that's no good.
    If child labor is a concern, that is easily stopped on a federal level without getting rid of competition between states. Simply state that it has to do with a child's rights and then it becomes federal government concern.

    The race to the bottom is awesome! The single largest mitigating factor? Efficient use of resources! Find a way to spend what you have to get get the most skilled work force (I use skilled instead of educated on purpose :P), provide a reasonable tax rate (it can even be progressive, but not crazy), have decent security, quality services, etc and the businesses will flock to you.

    Government should always have competition! Competition is what makes the free market so great. My entire business model revolves around charging more and giving better service. Guess what! It works! I just have to be that much better than the competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Hmm, that's true. I probably shouldn't have used a bartender, which is indeed an intra-state business... But I will agree that there is some amount of state-level interests, but there also are some intrastate interests. Maybe the bartender is more concerned about the state and the orange seller is more concerned with the nation. But I would contend that we've steadily been shifting towards national interests and away from state interests. That orange seller going out of business does put some folks out of work locally, but some of them will go to another state to find orange related work. It may also put somebody in a grocery chain 10 states away out of business.
    The problem here is that we are getting stuck on the one example. I could go into more about the orange grower and such, but we aren't even talking about the skilled labor areas and such.

    I'll happily admit there is interstate concern. That's why there is a federal government, but I won't pretend each state isn't it's own economy and government, as well.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I have a question about this policy of cutting the Department of Education.

    Who would insure that schools and states provide education to all and not discriminate based on race and religion?
    Who would insure that schools and states provide actual education and not religious based fantasy learning?
    Who would make the education standards?
    Who would insure some sort of minimum standard of education that all have to live up too?
    By education standards I mean uniform tests, minimum reading standards, and so on.

    You can not have a country where the quality of education is based on where you were born. While I know that this happens regardless, I am the firm believer that it is the role of a government entity to make sure that this factor is as minimal as possible. Right now in most countries, you have schooling systems based on set of rules that applies to all school districts. Sure some are bad, some are good. Some are rich, some are poor, but the basic principles are the same. Now by not having the central control system of an Education department, you risk having local governments dictating wildly different priorities and that would skew education in a country and society it self.

    For example, you could have one local government that is very religious make all schools small religious schools basing all their teachings on religious text. When these children leave the area, they would be seriously handicapped in the real world. We have seen this with some graduates from religious based universities in the US.

    Or a local government that has certain political views, that teaches the children these views by indoctrination. Like all lefties are bad or homos are bad and such things.

    Now I am not saying the current Department of Education in the US is good or bad, or worth its costs, but I am saying that something to make sure that there is a minimum education standard in the US is needed and no I do not trust the States themselves to do a good job... after all it was the states that fought against segregation and slavery...
    Under the US constitution, such things as education, health, and welfare fall under the general term "police powers" and are state powers, not federal . All the questions you asked, would be answered by the people of the state in question, not people in other states.
    Last edited by Centinel; 01-28-12 at 09:33 AM.

  4. #1724
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    we understand you want to make a tax you support sound less sinister but even the IRS calls state taxes on the wealth of an owner who has died "death taxes". Your almost frantic defense of both this abomination and its more sanitized name is interesting in its fervor
    This is interesting that you invoke the IRS - at least pretend to - while I gave you a link to the official IRS site AND the specific language from the same IRS which clearly states that the tax is an estate tax upon the transfer or property.

    again from the official IRS site previously linked

    Estate Tax
    The estate tax is a tax on your right to transfer property at your death. It consists of an accounting of everything you own or have certain interests in at the date of death.
    This crusade of yours is simply part of a desire for you to enjoy a low tax rate and keep money for yourself. It has nothing to do with larger issues of economics or national policy. That is of course your right.
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Pete
    you asked about the Japanese system

    Education in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    basically, it is a national system administered by a central power in Tokyo. Education is the same all over the nation. Students learn from the same curriculum and the same books and take the same tests regardless of where they live. The standardized tests that the Japanese student excels at, are perfectly dovetailed into the curriculum, giving them a significant advantage over students in localized systems with no national curriculum.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    This is interesting that you invoke the IRS - at least pretend to - while I gave you a link to the official IRS site AND the specific language from the same IRS which clearly states that the tax is an estate tax upon the transfer or property.

    again from the official IRS site previously linked



    This crusade of yours is simply part of a desire for you to enjoy a low tax rate and keep money for yourself. It has nothing to do with larger issues of economics or national policy. That is of course your right.
    Isn't it a bit silly saying he is against the death tax so he can keep it for himself?

  7. #1727
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I have a question about this policy of cutting the Department of Education.

    Who would insure that schools and states provide education to all and not discriminate based on race and religion?
    Who would insure that schools and states provide actual education and not religious based fantasy learning?
    Who would make the education standards?
    Who would insure some sort of minimum standard of education that all have to live up too?
    By education standards I mean uniform tests, minimum reading standards, and so on.

    You can not have a country where the quality of education is based on where you were born. While I know that this happens regardless, I am the firm believer that it is the role of a government entity to make sure that this factor is as minimal as possible. Right now in most countries, you have schooling systems based on set of rules that applies to all school districts. Sure some are bad, some are good. Some are rich, some are poor, but the basic principles are the same. Now by not having the central control system of an Education department, you risk having local governments dictating wildly different priorities and that would skew education in a country and society it self.

    For example, you could have one local government that is very religious make all schools small religious schools basing all their teachings on religious text. When these children leave the area, they would be seriously handicapped in the real world. We have seen this with some graduates from religious based universities in the US.

    Or a local government that has certain political views, that teaches the children these views by indoctrination. Like all lefties are bad or homos are bad and such things.
    Now I am not saying the current Department of Education in the US is good or bad, or worth its costs, but I am saying that something to make sure that there is a minimum education standard in the US is needed and no I do not trust the States themselves to do a good job... after all it was the states that fought against segregation and slavery...
    I love this post. It's thought out and asks some good questions.

    Our entire education system is very flawed. Elected officials on a federal level put in other officials in charge who try to manage state level elected officials who hire other officials who all put their spin on how they manage the people who try to manage tenured professors dealing with no child left behind while somehow squandering the second highest per-student budget on an education that ranks 18th in industrialized countries. (Wow that was a long sentence!)

    My ideal fix is of course to get government out of it as much as possible. I don't want them completely out of it, but they should be a guide, not a monopoly. This is why I personally like vouchers.

    My system simplified:
    Private schools are the standard and competition makes them more efficient.
    The private school has to be accredited to receive vouchers.
    To be accredited, they cannot be shown to have an overreaching bias, must cover all materials in a reasonable fashion, etc
    To get more vouchers, the school has to attract families by being higher quality while working under the same budget or asking for a significantly smaller amount from each family for improvements they feel will make them more appealing.

    Now you have much better schools competing to be the best under the same budget and you spend thousands less per student per year because you don't have 30 levels of bureaucracy. You still have government oversight to make sure the right materials are getting covered.

    This is my solution. Others will hate it and some will just want to modify it. But in general people realize that the level of idiocy running our education system is hurting the tax payers and our children.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Our public education system (Government Schools) is nothing more than a shifty pyramid scheme bent on Marxist socialization

    Probably, the only real things that are accomplished in K-12 today is teaching kids how to vote for democrats and screw with one another

    Home schooled or private school is your best option if you have kids....

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    So if you agree with what I am proposing and support the proposals introduced by the Democrats over and over during the past 6 months, what are we arguing about?
    Ive yet to see you or anyone on the left advocating social cuts and returning social spending to the states. You really advoating across the board mandated cuts? Then we have nothing to disagree on. But if you are doing more of the partisan twaddle, the "well yes...we have to cut all THOSE programs and raise taxes on THOSE people" then we not only arent arguing the same thing, we arent even speaking the same language.

  10. #1730
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Ive yet to see you or anyone on the left advocating social cuts and returning social spending to the states. You really advoating across the board mandated cuts? Then we have nothing to disagree on. But if you are doing more of the partisan twaddle, the "well yes...we have to cut all THOSE programs and raise taxes on THOSE people" then we not only arent arguing the same thing, we arent even speaking the same language.
    That's not partisan twaddle. We should cut most social programs and raise taxes on the middle and upper class. By middle, I mean over say, 75k.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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