Page 172 of 192 FirstFirst ... 72122162170171172173174182 ... LastLast
Results 1,711 to 1,720 of 1914

Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #1711
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:06 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    90,074

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I have a question about this policy of cutting the Department of Education.

    Who would insure that schools and states provide education to all and not discriminate based on race and religion?
    Who would insure that schools and states provide actual education and not religious based fantasy learning?
    Who would make the education standards?
    Who would insure some sort of minimum standard of education that all have to live up too?
    By education standards I mean uniform tests, minimum reading standards, and so on.

    You can not have a country where the quality of education is based on where you were born. While I know that this happens regardless, I am the firm believer that it is the role of a government entity to make sure that this factor is as minimal as possible. Right now in most countries, you have schooling systems based on set of rules that applies to all school districts. Sure some are bad, some are good. Some are rich, some are poor, but the basic principles are the same. Now by not having the central control system of an Education department, you risk having local governments dictating wildly different priorities and that would skew education in a country and society it self.

    For example, you could have one local government that is very religious make all schools small religious schools basing all their teachings on religious text. When these children leave the area, they would be seriously handicapped in the real world. We have seen this with some graduates from religious based universities in the US.

    Or a local government that has certain political views, that teaches the children these views by indoctrination. Like all lefties are bad or homos are bad and such things.

    Now I am not saying the current Department of Education in the US is good or bad, or worth its costs, but I am saying that something to make sure that there is a minimum education standard in the US is needed and no I do not trust the States themselves to do a good job... after all it was the states that fought against segregation and slavery...
    You raise some excellent questions. And I join you in wanting those sort of things protected. However, I do think that can be accomplished with a reduction in the overall budget of the D of Ed. I taught for 33 years and I honestly cannot tell you anything they did for the kids I taught.

    There is a tremendous duplication or even triplication (is that a word?) of effort and data collecting.

    In the end, I would favor a national system like the Japanese have. That would insure all that you and I want and the duplication at the local level would be eliminated. The conservative goal of cutting costs would thus be achieved. The noble goals you listed would also be achieved.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  2. #1712
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,769

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, it's all state and local taxes of all types according to the source. Except there is no such thing as a "death tax"... Perhaps you mean "estate tax"?



    This might be the kernel of our disagreement. In my view the fact that people can move states to try to avoid higher taxes is a problem and constitutes a reason that the federal government is better situated than the state governments to tax more progressively. It's what's called a "race to the bottom". States basically can't meaningfully tax rich people because they just move. States end up trying to undercut one another's tax rates to attract rich people and the ultimately result is what we have- regressive taxation at the state level. It's basically impossible for a state to have progressive taxation.

    The classic race to the bottom problem is child labor. Child labor laws used to be solely at the state level. So corporations that wanted cheap labor would set up in whichever state had the slackest child labor laws. States competing for the taxes those corporations would bring kept undercutting one another with more and more. One state would let 14 year olds work in factories, but only for 4 hours a day. Then another would allow 8 hours. Then another would allow 13 years. Then another would say they could work in mines. And so on, lower and lower, until 10 year olds could work 12 hours shifts in coal mines.... Probably virtually nobody actually wanted that to be the law, but competitive pressures forced them to do it. So, the federal government had to step in and set a floor for child labor laws.

    Competition between states is good for some things. For example, maybe one state will try investing heavily in computer oriented education and another will invest heavily in biology oriented education, one will do better than the other, and then the rest of the nation will tend to follow the stronger example. But that only works where the competitive forces are pressuring a state to do better. When it's competition over who can do the worst, that's no good.



    Hmm, that's true. I probably shouldn't have used a bartender, which is indeed an intra-state business... But I will agree that there is some amount of state-level interests, but there also are some intrastate interests. Maybe the bartender is more concerned about the state and the orange seller is more concerned with the nation. But I would contend that we've steadily been shifting towards national interests and away from state interests. That orange seller going out of business does put some folks out of work locally, but some of them will go to another state to find orange related work. It may also put somebody in a grocery chain 10 states away out of business.



    Yeah, great discussion.
    The IRS calls state "estate" taxes Death taxes. and you lefties never take those into account in averaging out what people play in state taxes or federal taxes. But even using numbers that are dubious as best, the rich are paying a higher percentage of taxes than the middle class.

  3. #1713
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,769

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That is absurd and nobody is suggesting that. Absurdity is not debate.
    You have argued that the rich have only what the masses will decide they will have

  4. #1714
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:06 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    90,074

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    The IRS calls state "estate" taxes Death taxes. and you lefties never take those into account in averaging out what people play in state taxes or federal taxes. But even using numbers that are dubious as best, the rich are paying a higher percentage of taxes than the middle class.
    So we have to slog through this field yet again? I would hope we can all be spared.

    Bakers call a certain dessert a Boston Cream Pie. It is NOT a pie. It is a cake. The name anyone gives it is not necessarily descriptive nor accurate.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #1715
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,769

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So we have to slog through this field yet again? I would hope we can all be spared.

    Bakers call a certain dessert a Boston Cream Pie. It is NOT a pie. It is a cake. The name anyone gives it is not necessarily descriptive nor accurate.
    The IRS calls state "estate" taxes death taxes. End of story

  6. #1716
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:06 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    90,074

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    You have argued that the rich have only what the masses will decide they will have
    Actually, I explained to you the process of passing laws in the USA and the role the people play in the selection of their duly elected representatives and in making their wishes known to them. If the wealthy are so afraid of themasses doing what you fear they could do, that is all the more reason to strive for tax justice now with modest tax raises.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #1717
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:06 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    90,074

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    The IRS calls state "estate" taxes death taxes. End of story
    Turtle, you and I both know that there is no tax on death. Millions of people die every year and there is no tax paid in association with their death. Well over 95% of people die each year in the USA and there is no tax associated with that death. If somebody very wealthy died tomorrow and all their possessions and wealthy were burned along with them in a great Viking like pyre, they and their wealth would go out in ablaze of glory and even they would have no tax associated with the death.

    As you well know, the tax is on the passing of wealth from one individual to a different individual because they are now acquiring income or property that could be converted into income.

    from the IRS no less

    http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=98968,00.html

    Estate Tax
    The estate tax is a tax on your right to transfer property at your death. It consists of an accounting of everything you own or have certain interests in at the date of death.


    The IRS - the people you invoked - state quite clearly that the tax is on the right to transfer property to others at death. It is not DEATH that is being taxed.

    This issue has lied dead for a few months and I had hoped it could continue to do so.

    Do Misters Luntz and Ferris need to come out to play again?
    Last edited by haymarket; 01-28-12 at 09:28 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #1718
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,769

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually, I explained to you the process of passing laws in the USA and the role the people play in the selection of their duly elected representatives and in making their wishes known to them. If the wealthy are so afraid of themasses doing what you fear they could do, that is all the more reason to strive for tax justice now with modest tax raises.
    Look Haymarket-there is nothing about government that you can tell me that I don't already know. Just because I object to the process that has led to our massive deficits and a ton of ignorant people voting, does not mean you have the ability or the need to "Explain" something to me. You are an advocate for the government taking more from the rich and I am an advocate of a less parasitic government and changing the system that encourages politicians to pander to envy and the lowest common denominator

    later

  9. #1719
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,769

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Turtle, you and I both know that there is no tax on death. Millions of people die every year and there is no tax paid in association with their death. Well over 95% of people die each year in the USA and there is no tax associated with that death. If somebody very wealthy died tomorrow and all their possessions and wealthy were burned along with them in a great Viking like pyre, they and their wealth would go out in ablaze of glory and even they would have no tax associated with the death.

    As you well know, the tax is on the passing of wealth from one individual to a different individual because they are now acquiring income or property that could be converted into income.

    from the IRS no less

    Estate and Gift Taxes

    This issue has lied dead for a few months and I had hoped it could continue to do so.

    Do Misters Luntz and Ferris need to come out to play again?
    we understand you want to make a tax you support sound less sinister but even the IRS calls state taxes on the wealth of an owner who has died "death taxes". Your almost frantic defense of both this abomination and its more sanitized name is interesting in its fervor

  10. #1720
    Sage
    OpportunityCost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:06 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    16,814

    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Adam, Im still waiting to hear what you propose for a tax rates or tax plan. You said, "you first" then disappeared from the thread.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •