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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You can't determine what's fair without looking at the totality of the circumstances. Otherwise you come up with bizarre results. For example, why not tax people by the pound? You weigh 200 lbs. you owe $20k. You weigh 100 lbs. you owe $10k! That's fair, right? Everyone pays the same amount per pound!
    Obesity is an epidemic. Perhaps Government SHOULD tax this way. It's for our own good. And obesity is linked to numerous health problems that are expensive to treat. It's not fair to tax the thin equally when they're LESS likely to need as much government health care later. Good idea Adam.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 01-18-12 at 08:00 PM.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Body weight has nothing to do with income or the amount of money someone spends.A sales tax means you are taxed based on what you spend. For example if the sales taxes is ten percent sales tax means if you spend a dollar you pay ten cents you spend a million dollars you pay 100,000 dollars.
    It's barely less arbitrary then taxing based on weight. Middle and lower income people have little discretion about what they spend, given that so much of their income is spent on housing, transportation, food, and child care. In contrast, wealthier people have a great deal of discretion over what they spend. It's actually a lot less fair than a flat income tax.

    Of course it also incentivizes NOT spending, which is hardly what the economy needs right now when the biggest problem is a lack of consumer demand. Slap a 17% national sales tax on top of your 6% state and local taxes and see how that impacts the economy.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It's barely less arbitrary then taxing based on weight. Middle and lower income people have little discretion about what they spend, given that so much of their income is spent on housing, transportation, food, and child care. In contrast, wealthier people have a great deal of discretion over what they spend. It's actually a lot less fair than a flat income tax.

    Of course it also incentivizes NOT spending, which is hardly what the economy needs right now when the biggest problem is a lack of consumer demand. Slap a 17% national sales tax on top of your 6% state and local taxes and see how that impacts the economy.
    speaking of incentives--when the lower and middle classes face tax increases every time the government spends more or every time the government wants to raise taxes on "the rich" I suspect government spending will start to become a FAR LESS popular strategy for politicians to buy the votes of the middle class

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    We have had it as high as 90% and had good results with that. That rate got us to the moon and back in a decade. Do you think we could do that today?
    you are lying. the 90% rate was gone before LBJ took office. and the effective rate back then wasn't much different than it is now due to all kinds of exemptions, write offs and other ways to lessen that confiscatory top marginal rate.

    If you think 90% is a great rate you need to start paying that much of every next dollar you earn. If you aren't willing to keep only 10c of every dollar you earn you have absolutely no integrity demanding that others pay that rate

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You don't want to hitch your cart to that horse. I'm not replying to him because we've had that same debate like 500 times. Every time he is unable to come up with counter arguments to all the arguments people present on it and just goes off to another tread to claim the same thing over again... I suspect he's doing it intentionally to annoy people at this point.



    No, the gains they draw from it are not nearly the same. For example, the stimulus spending appears to have boosted the stock market by approximately 25%. So Bill Gates drew roughly $10 billion in benefit from that. How much benefit did the average taxpayer get out of the stimulus? Maybe they got a new job a few weeks earlier because of it? Or maybe not even that?

    Companies require a large, educated, prosperous, society to make money. They need customers that can afford to buy their product, employees that are educated enough to do the job, employees that are healthy enough to work, etc. You're right that they pay the employees, but that doesn't mean they don't benefit from them being educated and whatnot. The median productivity of an American worker is an outstanding $97k/year. That's how much value they bring to their employer. But the median compensation is only $44k/year. So, the employer is keeping more than half of the value employees generate. So, roughly, each person gets half the value of their education, but their employer is collecting the other half.

    On top of that, you have things like defense, police, and fire. Those things benefit the super rich because they have more to protect. The homeless guy on the street would probably be better off if there were no police, where Bill Gates would be like $40 billion worse off. So, the value of police to Bill Gates is much greater.

    Also, you have infrastructure. A company that runs heavy semi trucks all over the country is drawing way more benefit from the highways. An office in Nevada gets way more benefit out of the electricity of the Hoover Dam than an individual does. The internet has done a smidge more for amazon.com than it has done for my grandmother. And so on.



    "Regressive" means "a lower percentage of their income". At least that's the common usage of it. If you want to talk about what percentage of Romney's income he pays in taxes and compare that to the percentage the middle class pays, you can't really exclude those taxes that the middle class pays more of. That's just distorting the comparison.
    Lets see, here is the argument.

    TD-I pay too much tax for what I get

    TSL-you need to pay more even though you pay more than most people


    so who has the proper standing? someone who is paying the top rates vs someone who thinks others who pay more ought to pay even more

    and no one has advanced a credible argument against me because they are all based on the following two assumptions

    1) ability to pay (and of course they exempt many people who can actually pay more than they do-ie almost all the middle class) is the most important factor for determining taxes

    2) the rich have too much money and the purpose of the tax system is to make things "fairer"

    well I reject both of those assumptions so all the arguments that are based on those premises have absolutely no value in a debate on this issue.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No wonder Romney didn't want to release his tax records! And no wonder he supports continuing the tax breaks for the wealthy!
    and Romney pays far more than thousands of Americans COMBINED. what is sad is that the parasite mentality demonizes this man for being successful and paying far far far more than he uses

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    speaking of incentives--when the lower and middle classes face tax increases every time the government spends more or every time the government wants to raise taxes on "the rich" I suspect government spending will start to become a FAR LESS popular strategy for politicians to buy the votes of the middle class
    I'm all for it. I agree that too many people aren't paying any income tax.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and Romney pays far more than thousands of Americans COMBINED. what is sad is that the parasite mentality demonizes this man for being successful and paying far far far more than he uses
    You think he didn't benefit far far far more than the average person from the bank bailouts?

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You think he didn't benefit far far far more than the average person from the bank bailouts?
    don't know, don't care but what I do know is that no matter how he got his wealth, the people whining about his tax rates would still be whining now

  10. #170
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and Romney pays far more than thousands of Americans COMBINED. what is sad is that the parasite mentality demonizes this man for being successful and paying far far far more than he uses
    if he paid far more than he benefited, he would be in another country. I think it is very fitting that someone who pays an effective tax rate of 15% represent the 1 percenters in the big battle in November in the GOP class war against the 99% (or "parasites" as you refer to them).
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