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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #1661
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you just don't seem to understand that as long as most people think its the duty of others to pay down the deficit most people will demand more government
    TD, your speculations about people's motives are irrelevant. When you talk about that stuff we all just ignore your rambling. You need policy arguments, not just ad hominems. You need to make the case that A is better than B, you can't just rely on saying "people who want A want it for reasons I don't like".

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Maybe...just maybe...a candidate (regardless of their income bracket) that sees a national debt that is at 15.5 trillion and climbing and a congress that has spent 1.4 trillion more a year than what they bring in and cant agree even to minor cuts in deficit spending over 10 years, MIGHT just realize that none of this is sustainable and that cuts MUST be made before we become Greece. Perhaps candidates simply differ on the notion that jacking up taxes on the investing classes for the sake of dumping more money into the hands of congress who in turn spend all and more and continue to increase the debt that our GRANDCHILDREN are going to have to pay as being a BAD idea. The president isnt supposed to run around tossing skittles and candy bars and pretend thats going to fix things. Bush was terrible on the debt spending and increases he authorized by signing those spending bills. Obama has been worse and has promised to spend even MORE. That may make you feel all warm and squiggly inside...great. Your grandkids are going to be less than thrilled.
    The notion that we owe so much that we should stop paying for what we spend makes zero sense. It's just one of those Republican mantras that you guys repeat over and over so many times that you forget it makes no sense... The debt is a reason to raise taxes, not to lower them... Obviously... If you want to pay down your credit card debt, do you do it by reducing your payments or by increasing them?

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It is haymarket's proposal, not mine, but just to clarify something- increasing the tax rates 5% isn't just a 5% increase in revenue. The average American pays about 13% in federal taxes, so if you increase that 5%, that would be 18%. So that's actually a 38% increase in revenues (5/13).

    The elimination of the capital gains tax break and the FICA contribution cap would also dramatically increase revenue.
    Good point! I was multiplying the total revenue, which is just not right. Makes a huge difference if you do .05 * total income. That adds a total of around 617 billion. That's two months of additional spending. It does alter my point, but does not completely rebuke it imo.

    The FICA is important to decide if the excess goes into the general fund or to SS distributions. I don't have the figures of how much it adds, but taxing anyone over 100k at an additional 20.3% (employer and employee side plus the 5% mentioned above) or 13.4% while the current tax break holds would add a lot of revenue.

    I still say that historically, capital gains increases don't generally add much or can even reduce cap gains tax revenue. I could probably dig up a few links and (iirc) even President Obama said it was more about fairness than revenue in 2008. I think most people on the cap gains train (currently I'm kinda with them) feel that it's more about what investments are encouraged.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    TD, your speculations about people's motives are irrelevant. When you talk about that stuff we all just ignore your rambling. You need policy arguments, not just ad hominems. You need to make the case that A is better than B, you can't just rely on saying "people who want A want it for reasons I don't like".
    great

    start by eliminating unconstitutional programs. The Department of Education is a good place to really start some serious pruning. The IRS could use some major reductions, same with the ATF, and if we got rid of the moronic war on drugs we could save billions in incarceration and court costs. The federal government does not need to own near as much land as it does now

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Whoever cures cancer doesn't need to be that magnanimous, but demanding 1/4 of the world's GDP is obviously absurd.
    I *hate* that word demand....but, guess what? China is offering me a better deal (smart labor, solid infrastructure, potential customers, etc, etc)

    You can take the 99% and shove it

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    I still say that historically, capital gains increases don't generally add much or can even reduce cap gains tax revenue.
    It's a mixed bag. Sometimes decreasing capital gains tax rates have increased revenue overall. Somewhere there is an optimal rate. That optimal rate changes over time as our needs for consumer spending fluctuate relative to our needs for investment. If you're below the optimal rate you would gain revenue by increasing it, if you're above that rate, you would gain revenue by decreasing it. In Reagan's time we had "stagflation" meaning high demand, low supply. We had plenty of consumer spending, but not enough investment. So, lowering the capital gains rate was a good move to stimulate investment. The last 15 years or so we've been having out of control bubbles. That means too much investment capital relative to consumer spending. Company's stock prices keep going up because more and more investment capital if flowing into the stock market, but they ultimately can't justify those inflated valuations because their revenues are low due to low consumer spending. The bubbles pop. That means that our economy is crying for consumer spending and no so much for investment. So, today we need to be shifting things back a bit to rely more on taxing capital gains and less on taxing the middle class.

    Some times in our history we've taxed investment more and then we run into stagflation, sometimes we've taxed wages more and we run into bubbles. Keeping them matched seems to maintain the balance about right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    I could probably dig up a few links and (iirc) even President Obama said it was more about fairness than revenue in 2008.
    That's a severe misrepresentation people peddle. He said very clearly if you listen to the whole interview that he wants to increase capital gains, but only to the extent that it makes sense to do economically and increases revenue, and that he thinks fairness is also a reason to do it, but that he certainly wouldn't do it if it was doing a lot of economic damage or decreasing revenues. Their reaction wasn't triggered by him saying fairness was the most important consideration, they were upset that it was any consideration at all.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It's a mixed bag. Sometimes decreasing capital gains tax rates have increased revenue overall. Somewhere there is an optimal rate. That optimal rate changes over time as our needs for consumer spending fluctuate relative to our needs for investment. If you're below the optimal rate you would gain revenue by increasing it, if you're above that rate, you would gain revenue by decreasing it. In Reagan's time we had "stagflation" meaning high demand, low supply. We had plenty of consumer spending, but not enough investment. So, lowering the capital gains rate was a good move to stimulate investment. The last 15 years or so we've been having out of control bubbles. That means too much investment capital relative to consumer spending. Company's stock prices keep going up because more and more investment capital if flowing into the stock market, but they ultimately can't justify those inflated valuations because their revenues are low due to low consumer spending. The bubbles pop. That means that our economy is crying for consumer spending and no so much for investment. So, today we need to be shifting things back a bit to rely more on taxing capital gains and less on taxing the middle class.

    Some times in our history we've taxed investment more and then we run into stagflation, sometimes we've taxed wages more and we run into bubbles. Keeping them matched seems to maintain the balance about right.
    I don't disagree with the principles you put forth. However, we have to be careful walking that line. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more revenue out of cap gains tax, but if we go too far in an economy already damaged with the housing bubble and hurt the RE market again, it might get ugly.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's a severe misrepresentation people peddle. He said very clearly if you listen to the whole interview that he wants to increase capital gains, but only to the extent that it makes sense to do economically and increases revenue, and that he thinks fairness is also a reason to do it, but that he certainly wouldn't do it if it was doing a lot of economic damage or decreasing revenues. Their reaction wasn't triggered by him saying fairness was the most important consideration, they were upset that it was any consideration at all.
    I haven't seen the text of the speech in a long time. I will take your word for it that, in context, it has a very different meaning.

    Again, cap gains isn't going to be the sticking point for you and I, I'm guessing. I wouldn't mind some increase (though we'd probably differ on the numbers). I just don't know how much additional revenue it provides.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Again, cap gains isn't going to be the sticking point for you and I, I'm guessing. I wouldn't mind some increase (though we'd probably differ on the numbers). I just don't know how much additional revenue it provides.
    Yeah, nobody does really. It's a big guessing game. But personally I think our economy is pretty clearly gasping for revenue and consumer spending, not investment. IMO that's where we should be concentrating. That's why I think things like the payroll tax cut make a whole lot more sense right now than things like breaks for capital gains.

    One indicator that gives at least some idea of whether we're more in need of investment or consumer spending is the price to earning ratios on the stock market. That's basically the ratio of investment capital to actual revenues in the economy. If it gets really high that means we have a lot of investment capital, not much for consumer spending and if it gets low, it means the opposite. When Regan was in office the average P/E ratio on the S&P was around 10. The conventional wisdom is that about 15 is optimal. That's where it has been for most of our history except for three huge spikes- one right before the great depression, one right before the dot com crash and one right before the Bush recession. So, he was right to try to increase investment even at the expense of consumer spending. We're currently at an average P/E ratio or 22. So, that's a pretty good indication that we need to be increasing consumer spending even at the expense of investment capital. That's a very, very, rough indicator, but it gives you a general idea IMO.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The notion that we owe so much that we should stop paying for what we spend makes zero sense. It's just one of those Republican mantras that you guys repeat over and over so many times that you forget it makes no sense... The debt is a reason to raise taxes, not to lower them... Obviously... If you want to pay down your credit card debt, do you do it by reducing your payments or by increasing them?
    No one is suggesting we stop paying what we spend...but there is a MASSIVE difference of opinion re how much we should be spending in the first place. We should be cutting spending. I personally believe in increasing taxes on EVERYONE once we have mandated spending cuts with the intent to reduce the debt. But not solely to be able to spend more. Thats just plain foolish. Welcome to your democrat and republican parties and their supporters.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, nobody does really. It's a big guessing game. But personally I think our economy is pretty clearly gasping for revenue and consumer spending, not investment. IMO that's where we should be concentrating. That's why I think things like the payroll tax cut make a whole lot more sense right now than things like breaks for capital gains.
    I'm cutting the last paragraph not because I disagree, but because I have very little to add.

    On the first one, I get a bit nervous on the FICA tax cut. That money still needs to be paid out in SS unless we change the system. It's still more debt spending. I like that it helps those in the lower brackets, but I would really rather it came out of the general fund and that spending was decreased in proportion (or even better at 2/1).

    The fact that it helps me at least double as a private business owner and employer who hasn't topped 106k profit margin yet probably factors in Unfortunately, that is a short term assistance, since it will still have to be paid back.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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