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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #111
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    My BS detector just redlined. and like most lefties you ignore the real issue-actual dollars paid in taxes vs benefits received for those dollars.
    There is no such relationship that determines taxation.

    You keep bringing nonsense up that is completely irrelevant to the issue of taxation.
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Its my impression of the 40-50% who pay no federal income taxes while pissing bitching and moaning about those who pay all kinds of taxes..
    They pay no federal income tax because they have such a low income that the deductibles are higher than their income. Maybe you should be asking why you have a society where 50% of the population earn so little and yet statistically you are supposedly a rich nation?

    But ultimately it is the fault of a tax system that is broken at both ends. While you can excuse the poor for not paying income taxes up to a point (they have to eat and shelter themselves and need all the income they can get), there is zero excuse for the rich not to pay at least the same % as the middle class.. in fact they should be paying more. It aint fair, but life is not fair. The fact that Romney pays 15% while those who vote for him pay 27% is .... utterly reprehensible and I understand fully why he did not want to share his tax records.. they only prove how out of touch he and his party is with the average American.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Maybe you should be asking why you have a society where 50% of the population earn so little and yet statistically you are supposedly a rich nation?
    I've asked myself that and found the answer: being a "rich nation" does not and cannot mean that every member is rich. That is utopian fantasy. There are too many people everywhere nowadays for resources and the currencies that represent a claim to them not to be scarce.

    So divorce yourself from the notion of the US as a "rich nation."

    While you can excuse the poor for not paying income taxes up to a point (they have to eat and shelter themselves and need all the income they can get), there is zero excuse for the rich not to pay at least the same % as the middle class.. in fact they should be paying more. It aint fair, but life is not fair. The fact that Romney pays 15% while those who vote for him pay 27% is .... utterly reprehensible and I understand fully why he did not want to share his tax records.. they only prove how out of touch he and his party is with the average American.
    In theory I can agree, or at least refrain from disagreeing. In reality we have to discuss the real world effect of hiking the capital gains tax this significantly.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    I've asked myself that and found the answer: being a "rich nation" does not and cannot mean that every member is rich. That is utopian fantasy. There are too many people everywhere nowadays for resources and the currencies that represent a claim to them not to be scarce.

    So divorce yourself from the notion of the US as a "rich nation."
    I believe there are terms for nations where the wealth is concentrated at the top to privilaged elites. Noboby is saying everybody is rich, the US is a modern economy not a bannana republic. When he uses the term rich nation he's separating us from the China's and Bolivia's of the world not pretending that every in America is or can make a million+ a year.

    In theory I can agree, or at least refrain from disagreeing. In reality we have to discuss the real world effect of hiking the capital gains tax this significantly.
    Sure, please show the real world effects in the United States. What was the growth rate before Capital gains rates were slashed. What are they after? Has it led to an explosion of productivity? Has Americans lives improved to validate the lowering of capital gains?
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I've asked myself that and found the answer: being a "rich nation" does not and cannot mean that every member is rich. That is utopian fantasy. There are too many people everywhere nowadays for resources and the currencies that represent a claim to them not to be scarce.

    So divorce yourself from the notion of the US as a "rich nation."
    I divorced that idea long ago. To me a rich nation is not the nation with the greatest GDP per capita, but the greatest GDP capita AND the lowest income inequality... and here the US is no where near the top.

    In theory I can agree, or at least refrain from disagreeing. In reality we have to discuss the real world effect of hiking the capital gains tax this significantly.
    Dont have to discuss anything. It has been done in other countries and there has not been any doomsday negative aspects to it. Like it or no capital gains is "free money" to those who make it.. they hardly work for the money compared to an industrial worker and so on. Hence not only are you punishing the actual working population but you are breeding a society where "free money" is rewarded by lower tax rates. And when that area of "free money" is so highly unregulated (/wave the financial crisis), then it is double punishment when the actual working population has to bail out the "free loaders" who get most of their income via capital gains.

    I know the arguments about reinvesting capital gains back into the economy and all that bull****... it is a hyperhole used to justify such a lower tax rate. Like it or not a person earning 10 million in capital gains a year, who pays 1.5 million in taxes on that, wont go starving or invest less of his/her fortune just because he has to pay 2.7 million in taxes instead. Like it or not, the deficit wont go away by cutting to the bone.. you need more income as well, and the best place to get that is from those that actually can afford to pay.
    PeteEU

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    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I believe there are terms for nations where the wealth is concentrated at the top to privilaged elites. Noboby is saying everybody is rich, the US is a modern economy not a bannana republic. When he uses the term rich nation he's separating us from the China's and Bolivia's of the world not pretending that every in America is or can make a million+ a year.



    Sure, please show the real world effects in the United States. What was the growth rate before Capital gains rates were slashed. What are they after? Has it led to an explosion of productivity? Has Americans lives improved to validate the lowering of capital gains?
    These questions indicate you're looking to correlation to find causation. A dot-com bubble was inflating in the lead up to the last CG slash. And right after it was slashed, revenues as % of GDP got a boost.

    These are very dynamic things. I am not an economist but I know that you can't look to one variable in an economic boom and credit it for the boom itself, much less assume that reintroducing that variable in a depressed period is going to flip the economy.

    There are interesting articles out there from folks probably smarter than you and me who could guess the present-day impact of returning CG taxes to somewhere around 30%. I have to go, but I will revisit this later.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    They pay no federal income tax because they have such a low income that the deductibles are higher than their income. Maybe you should be asking why you have a society where 50% of the population earn so little and yet statistically you are supposedly a rich nation?
    The average US median income is $50,000.Everyone regardless of how much or how little they make is in a income tax bracket. The lowest being 10% for $0-$8,500 and 35% for those whose income is $379,150 and above. The fact that 40-50% of Americans pay no federal income taxes means they are exploiting those tax breaks/cuts/loopholes or credits just as much as those who actually do pay taxes.


    Median U.S. Household Income by State - US News and World Report


    Tax Brackets (Federal Income Tax Rates) 2000 through 2011 and 2012
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    They pay no federal income tax because they have such a low income that the deductibles are higher than their income. Maybe you should be asking why you have a society where 50% of the population earn so little and yet statistically you are supposedly a rich nation?
    The Wall Street Journal has a name for them - Lucky Duckies. They're lucky they're so poor that the don't pay taxes!

    Lucky duckies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (wait for the blackout to end)
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    These questions indicate you're looking to correlation to find causation. A dot-com bubble was inflating in the lead up to the last CG slash. And right after it was slashed, revenues as % of GDP got a boost.

    These are very dynamic things. I am not an economist but I know that you can't look to one variable in an economic boom and credit it for the boom itself, much less assume that reintroducing that variable in a depressed period is going to flip the economy.

    There are interesting articles out there from folks probably smarter than you and me who could guess the present-day impact of returning CG taxes to somewhere around 30%. I have to go, but I will revisit this later.
    Every study I've seen shows very little to no correlation between capital gains taxes and economic growth. Even when taking into account any lag between capital gains rate changes and impact.

    When you get back I'm interested in whatever paper you have that predicts a 30% impact on GDP growth.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The average US median income is $50,000.Everyone regardless of how much or how little they make is in a income tax bracket. The lowest being 10% for $0-$8,500 and 35% for those whose income is $379,150 and above. The fact that 40-50% of Americans pay no federal income taxes means they are exploiting those tax breaks/cuts/loopholes or credits just as much as those who actually do pay taxes.


    Median U.S. Household Income by State - US News and World Report


    Tax Brackets (Federal Income Tax Rates) 2000 through 2011 and 2012
    I would like to point out that 50,000 is household income not median individual income. The median individual income for 2010

    By definition, 50 percent of wage earners had net compensation less than or equal to the median wage, which is estimated to be $26,363.55 for 2010.
    Wage Statistics for 2010

    That means 50% of Americans make less than 26k a year. And you're complaining they don't pay enough in taxes.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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