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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #1121
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I've already answered from that position. My post #1111. A 15% effective tax rate is much higher than the average American.
    That's higher than the average American's effective FEDERAL INCOME tax rate. NOT their TOTAL tax rate- the percentage of their income that goes to taxes overall. That is what I am asking- does about half the percentage of Romney's income end up going to taxes as the percentage of the average American's that does?

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Nope, that's not the question I'm asking. The question I am asking is:

    True or false- Romney pays approximately half the percentage of his income in taxes as the average American.

    All taxes, not just one kind or another, all taxes. For the purpose of the question, assume that Romney was telling the truth when he said that he indeed pays 15% effective income taxes total, not just federal.
    Considering the table your provided from CTJ I would say Romney LIED! He is presumably in the 1% which pays 30.0% per CTJ for 'All taxes, not just one kind or another, all taxes'. If he said 15% he MUST be wrong using your logic. And by the same logic the middle class pays around 25%, again per your CTJ data, so NO he would pay 5% more...?

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While you make your statist argument that the existence of the law justifies the principle and reason behind the law, did you find the section of the Constitution which you claim guarantees the pursuit of happiness?
    we know it is in the Declaration of Independence and not the Constitution. We know the DofI is not the Constitution.

    So did the ideas outlined in Declaration have any influence on the Constitution? Yes or No,
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The tax rates for the rich were higher under the Republican presidents, Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, and Reagan then they were under Clinton!
    WHOAA back there big boy, are you making this statement using 'marginal', 'effective' or the constantly spouted 'All taxes, not just one kind or another, all taxes'?

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Considering the table your provided from CTJ I would say Romney LIED! He is presumably in the 1% which pays 30.0% per CTJ for 'All taxes, not just one kind or another, all taxes'. If he said 15% he MUST be wrong using your logic. And by the same logic the middle class pays around 25%, again per your CTJ data, so NO he would pay 5% more...?
    The 1% is a big category. Most people even in the top 1% still make most of their money by working, so they don't get to use the capital gains loophole much. Most people even in the top 1% still spend a not insignificant percentage of their income on sales taxes and property taxes and FICA. But, the 1% also includes folks for whom sales, property and FICA taxes take up a miniscule percentage of their income and who get to use the capital gains loophole for all or almost all of their income. Romney is more in the later group than the former. Keep in mind that he made approximately 100 times more than the guy that just barely squeaked in to the top 1%. So I think it is very plausible that he pays 15%. We'll see soon enough though it sounds like.
    Last edited by teamosil; 01-23-12 at 12:55 AM.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    WHOAA back there big boy, are you making this statement using 'marginal', 'effective' or the constantly spouted 'All taxes, not just one kind or another, all taxes'?
    Except for a four year period, both marginal and effective, for just federal:

    "Even so, when Obama said that "if you're a … wealthy CEO or a … hedge fund manager in America right now, your taxes are … lower than they've been since the 1950s," he's close: Their tax rates are at or near the lows for the years elapsed since then.

    The top marginal income tax rates were lower between 1988 and 1992 than they are today, but otherwise, Obama is right. They were higher for the other years. Meanwhile, the rates that are used to tax carried interest for hedge-fund managers have been at historical lows since 2003. And effective tax rates for high-income earners were either at their lowest since 1960 or very close to their lowest (at least according to the most recent data available). On balance, we rate Obama’s statement Mostly True."

    PolitiFact | Barack Obama says tax rates are lowest since 1950s for CEOs, hedge fund managers

    When you add in state taxes, effective rates are higher for the working class than the super rich:

    The 53% Myth: Working Poor Pay More Of Their Income In State And Local Taxes Than The Rich In 49 States

    "For example, if you look at state and local taxes, the working poor actually pay a higher percentage of their income in these taxes in every state except for Vermont. In “Alabama, for example, low-income families (which make less than $13,000) pay 11 percent of their income in state and local taxes, while those making more than $229,000 pay just 4 percent.”
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And still no logical case made for the discriminatory preferential tax rates for capital gains which benefit mostly the wealthy.

    Lots of pontificating. But still no case made.
    How about this:

    The lower tax rate on dividends lowers the effective tax rate on investment in the corporate sector relative to the other sectors. The reduction in the double tax on corporate profits results in a more even taxation of investments across production sectors, a more efficient allocation of capital, and an increase in output.

    When lower taxes on capital income are financed initially by issuing government debt, private investment is crowded out by an increase in government borrowing. Private saving may increase as a result of the tax relief (and may be augmented by capital inflows from abroad), but private investment will generally not increase by the same amount because a portion of the increase in private saving funds the increase in government debt. When the majority of the tax relief is on labor income, the crowding-out effect is even larger and private investment could even decline in the short run.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    How about this:

    The lower tax rate on dividends lowers the effective tax rate on investment in the corporate sector relative to the other sectors. The reduction in the double tax on corporate profits results in a more even taxation of investments across production sectors, a more efficient allocation of capital, and an increase in output.

    That is the theory of trickle down economics, where is the beef??? Where are the jobs that were supposed to be created by the last decade of tax cuts?

    When lower taxes on capital income are financed initially by issuing government debt, private investment is crowded out by an increase in government borrowing. Private saving may increase as a result of the tax relief (and may be augmented by capital inflows from abroad), but private investment will generally not increase by the same amount because a portion of the increase in private saving funds the increase in government debt. When the majority of the tax relief is on labor income, the crowding-out effect is even larger and private investment could even decline in the short run.
    No evidence of that in the 90's. We created 22 million jobs.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack
    And yet...for some strange reason...now...hang with me for a second...you nor anyone else here starts a "Kerry only paid 15%" thread. Shocking...right?
    they seem similarly un-incensed about Obama taking advantage of tax credits and rates he decries

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You wanna know what is absolutely sick Turtle? Sick to the point of inducing violent vomitting? Discriminatory tax rates which benefit the riches people in our society more than anybody else. And people who defend them out of pure selfish greed because they want what they want and they like it that way and screw anybody else who dare raise the spectre of taxing all money coming into a person pocket as income according to the same rate schedule.

    Now that is disgusting.
    Apparently the concept of an American citizen advocating for a national tax policy is foreign to you?

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