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Thread: Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

  1. #1011
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Its not but some believe that the progressive scheme that is biased against the wealthy is properly applied to all taxes. that is how far left propaganda sites claim that the US TAX SYSTEM (which only has a few progressive taxes in the many different taxes that make up the US tax system-which includes state sales taxes, state property taxes, luxury taxes, excise taxes etc) is not as progressive as it should be. They include dozens of taxes that were NEVER INTENDED to be progressive with the asinine assumption that the entire tax system should be progressive rather than those few taxes which were intended to be progressive

    What I think will be a real shame is when capital shrinks due to people with the money investing less due to this blatant grab into their pockets. When that happens we are done.


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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I think I already have. Capital gains treatment of dividends is another piece of social engineering, in my opinion. It encourages investors to invest in the stock market rather than put their money in their mattresses or in banks.
    Oh, ok. That argument doesn't hold water. Even if there were say a 90% tax on investment profits, it would still be more profitable to invest than to put it under your matress, and even with an 80% tax it would still be more profitable than leaving it in a bank account. And, regardless, banks just invest the money deposited anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Your "Let's say..." assumption doesn't hold water. These corporations should be paying 35% tax on those dividends. Of course, they're not because, as you point out, they're too busy finding ways around it. And Congress is too busy to close these legal loopholes. My point is that 35% + 15% = 50%. Don't penalize the individual investor because Congress has, yet again, let big business off the hook.
    It's not a question of whether to penalize individual investors for something, it is a question of whether they can claim credit for something that isn't actually happening. They cannot.

    If every company- not just corporations- actually paid 35% on every dollar they gave out in taxes, I would be willing to accept a lower individual tax rate for dividends. But in reality they don't. Companies that pay a lot of dividends organize themselves as partnerships so they don't have to pay taxes and companies organized as corporations don't really pay much in dividends. So it isn't a real issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I own 1000 shares of XYZ stock. I receive $10,000 in dividends over 10 years. I pay 15% tax on those dividends. In year 11, I sell those 1,000 shares for $10,000 less than I paid for it. Assuming I have no offsetting gains, I get to deduct $3,000 (I think) in losses every year until I've used up the $10,000. In the meantime, I've paid tax on $10,000 of dividends that were taxed as income when, in fact, I lost money.
    So your concern is that you would like to be able to defer more losses. I have no opinion on that either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I personally think that the favorable treatment of capital gains needs revisiting...for all of the reasons you've pointed out. Our tax code is a freakin' mess. The capital gains tax is just one area. Corporate income tax is even more aggregious.
    Agreed. Personally I would be ok with just eliminating corporate income taxes if we did it at the same time as we eliminated the tax breaks for capital gains and just started taxing it as normal income.

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    more lies that ignores reality

    the same pot of money is taxed twice by the same entity. there is no transaction when a corporation transfers money to its owners like there is when other transactions are taxed

    when I earn income it is taxed by the government. when I hire you to cut my grass or do my taxes I pay you income. That money is again taxed but that is because it has been exchanged for services. Same thing If I buy a tennis racquet from Haymarket's tennis supply shop.
    that is such utter and complete garbage.

    Those freaking "OWNERS" are mere holders of stock. As such they have very limited rights. Let them waltz in to the factory one day and start taking product because - as you call them, they are a freaking OWNER. Welcome to the slammer Mr. OWNER.

    Corporations are a legal entity. But wait. The law has been given to you more times than a ninety year old lady has to drink prune juice so you should already know this. As a legal entity they pay their own tax bill. A human taxpayer is a different legal entity and as such they pay their own tax bill. But again, you already know that too.

    So the question that is central here is WHY WHY WHY do you keep insisting on the lie that your already know is a lie?

    Wait - I know - Gollum and the One Ring again.
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Your wish is my command.

    Attachment 67121489

    -- Seriously, though, the company pays you salary and gets to deduct that salary...they don't pay tax on it. You do. Business expenses are tax deductible. Another example: You pay your ex-wife alimony. You deduct it. She pays the tax. Can't think of any more examples off hand, but there are plenty. And I'm still laughing about the violin.
    we see that silly violin comment and we will also see the left claiming that envy has nothing to do with their whines that the rich should pay more money.

    the dividend double taxation is like this. Lots of companies use payroll services. I owe my employees 1 million. It would be like Turtle Inc transferring 1 million to payroll inc and the government taking 35% of it and then when payroll inc pays the employees, the government taxing their income as well. same pot of money, same taxing authority

    its double taxation

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Wow, you sure have a lot of balls dude...Speaking for everyone else as though you could.


    j-mac
    LOL! Yeah, he must really be clairvoyant:

    23 Polls Say People Support Higher Taxes to Reduce the Deficit
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What I think will be a real shame is when capital shrinks due to people with the money investing less due to this blatant grab into their pockets. When that happens we are done.


    j-mac
    Could you give us the name of that high school Economics text so we can see if you got the theory right?
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    we see that silly violin comment and we will also see the left claiming that envy has nothing to do with their whines that the rich should pay more money.

    the dividend double taxation is like this. Lots of companies use payroll services. I owe my employees 1 million. It would be like Turtle Inc transferring 1 million to payroll inc and the government taking 35% of it and then when payroll inc pays the employees, the government taxing their income as well. same pot of money, same taxing authority

    its double taxation
    Repeating the same lie a million times does not give it any more of a sheen of legitimacy.
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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    that is such utter and complete garbage.

    Those freaking "OWNERS" are mere holders of stock. As such they have very limited rights. Let them waltz in to the factory one day and start taking product because - as you call them, they are a freaking OWNER. Welcome to the slammer Mr. OWNER.

    Corporations are a legal entity. But wait. The law has been given to you more times than a ninety year old lady has to drink prune juice so you should already know this. As a legal entity they pay their own tax bill. A human taxpayer is a different legal entity and as such they pay their own tax bill. But again, you already know that too.

    So the question that is central here is WHY WHY WHY do you keep insisting on the lie that your already know is a lie?

    Wait - I know - Gollum and the One Ring again.
    I realize the desire of some for the government to get as much money as possible. Some people believe that the government is far wiser in using the money than others. that is the only possible way to justify this sort of attitude. Its not like the government doesn't get a huge cut. But to justify the government taking 35% of the same pot of money at one level and then wanting it to take 40% again at the second level is frankly sick IMHO.

    That you think the government should tax say a million dollars 350K and then the remaining 650K at 40% meaning that of the million earned by the company the government taxes 350K and then 240+K again is disgusting

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Your wish is my command.

    Attachment 67121489

    -- Seriously, though, the company pays you salary and gets to deduct that salary...they don't pay tax on it. You do. Business expenses are tax deductible. Another example: You pay your ex-wife alimony. You deduct it. She pays the tax. Can't think of any more examples off hand, but there are plenty. And I'm still laughing about the violin.
    Maggie - I feel asleep watching the football game and woke up crabby. Sorry if I took it out on you.

    But there is no double taxation since it is on two different legal entities.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Repeating the same lie a million times does not give it any more of a sheen of legitimacy.
    I don't know, Haymarket...I think Turtle's analogy re salary is on target. How do you counter that?
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