Cruise Ship sinks!

Tigger · Jan 16, 2012

dontworrybehappy said:
A cruise ship is not as easy of a target as you might suspect. Unless you hit this thing from multiple angles, there are simply too many people on there for you not to get caught. First, the captain will radio distress and within minutes you will have a military dispatched to ruin your day. Second, its very hard to attack a ship on the open seas, you have to be in a boat big enough to do that and if you are, you are easily tracable. Third, it would be an act of war.

I don't see a cruise ship as an easy target, I see it as a sucker hole into something much worse.

You don't attack it by boat. You attack it by helicopter. You do it very similarly to how the Iraeli's took down the Freedom Flotilla ship a couple years ago. Once you shoot the first 3 or 4 dozen people the rest will tend to become very compliant. Then you have a ship full of hostages to bargain with. Since the crew is not allowed to carry weapons by international treaty (what a joke), the ship itself has no defenses.

Red_Dave · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
You don't attack it by boat. You attack it by helicopter. You do it very similarly to how the Iraeli's took down the Freedom Flotilla ship a couple years ago. Once you shoot the first 3 or 4 dozen people the rest will tend to become very compliant. Then you have a ship full of hostages to bargain with. Since the crew is not allowed to carry weapons by international treaty (what a joke), the ship itself has no defenses.

What international treaty would that be? As far as i know the ship is subject to the law of whatever countries flag it is flying

Tigger · Jan 16, 2012

Red_Dave said:
What international treaty would that be? As far as i know the ship is subject to the law of whatever countries flag it is flying

It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that non-military ships and crews in international waters are not allowed to carry armaments (neither crew served nor small arms). I believe this has to do with UN conventions/treaties that have been in place for quite a while. I remember hearing about it during the Somali Piracy issue a couple years ago.

AdamT · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that non-military ships and crews in international waters are not allowed to carry armaments (neither crew served nor small arms). I believe this has to do with UN conventions/treaties that have been in place for quite a while. I remember hearing about it during the Somali Piracy issue a couple years ago.

If you're in international waters you can do pretty much whatever you want -- including carrying arms.

MaggieD · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that non-military ships and crews in international waters are not allowed to carry armaments (neither crew served nor small arms). I believe this has to do with UN conventions/treaties that have been in place for quite a while. I remember hearing about it during the Somali Piracy issue a couple years ago.

That's not true. Cruise lines don't talk about their armed security because they don't want to alarm potential passengers, but it's definitely there...

An Italian cruise ship with 1,500 people on board fended off a pirate attack far off the coast of Somalia when its Israeli private security forces exchanged fire with the bandits and drove them away, the commander said Sunday.

Read more: Italian Cruise Ship Fires on Somali Pirates | Fox News

Luna Tick · Jan 16, 2012

dontworrybehappy said:
A cruise ship is not as easy of a target as you might suspect. Unless you hit this thing from multiple angles, there are simply too many people on there for you not to get caught. First, the captain will radio distress and within minutes you will have a military dispatched to ruin your day. Second, its very hard to attack a ship on the open seas, you have to be in a boat big enough to do that and if you are, you are easily tracable. Third, it would be an act of war.

I don't see a cruise ship as an easy target, I see it as a sucker hole into something much worse.

Also, almost all cruise ships are foreign. Because of stricter American registration laws, the cruise industry registers almost every ship on a foreign flag. There are many Panamanian and Italian vessels. There's only one American one in the entire industry. It's a ship that cruises Hawaii exclusively. Therefore every port it visits is an American one. They have a law that says if a foreign ship goes to an American port, it's required to visit a foreign port before visiting another American one. That's why that ship that only cruises Hawaii sails under the American flag.

Cruising is a lot of fun and I intend to keep doing it. I'm not going to live my life in fear. It's extremely unlikely that one of these ships will sink or be attacked by terrorists. There are reports of car accidents almost every day, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop driving my car. It's even possible a terrorist could rig up some kind of explosive device and attack a bridge, but I'm not going to live my life refusing to drive over bridges.

Tigger · Jan 16, 2012

MaggieD said:
That's not true. Cruise lines don't talk about their armed security because they don't want to alarm potential passengers, but it's definitely there...

Okay. I was under the impression that was not allowed. Now, once they start allowing PASSENGERS to carry arms, I might CONSIDER taking a cruise.

hazlnut · Jan 16, 2012

Higgins86 said:
BBC News - Italy cruise ship captain detained after vessel runs aground

Didnt see this posted anywhere on here! Bit of a shocking story and there will be a lot of questions that need answered! Thoughts with the families of the missing people and hope even at this hour they can still find some people in there!

We did a 5-day cruise over new years. That is scary.

Luna Tick · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
Okay. I was under the impression that was not allowed. Now, once they start allowing PASSENGERS to carry arms, I might CONSIDER taking a cruise.

That's about as likely as allowing passengers on airplanes to carry guns. It ain't gonna happen. Those cruise ships are safer than the cars we drive in every day. Cruising is fun. You're missing out. However, it's your life and your call to make. You would also need to get a passport since almost every cruise goes to foreign ports. The only exception is that one ship that cruises Hawaii only. It's known as the Pride of America.

Tigger · Jan 16, 2012

Luna Tick said:
That's about as likely as allowing passengers on airplanes to carry guns. It ain't gonna happen. Those cruise ships are safer than the cars we drive in every day. Cruising is fun. You're missing out. However, it's your life and your call to make. You would also need to get a passport since almost every cruise goes to foreign ports. The only exception is that one ship that cruises Hawaii only. It's known as the Pride of America.

Which is why you'll probably never see me on a cruise ship and why whenever possible I will DRIVE wherever I'm going rather than flying. Though I'm not sure if you realize that it's only within about the last 50 years that gun possession on a plane has been banned. It actually used to be quite common.

My mother has been on several cruises, including a couple with my dad before he passed away. I don't have a passport, and despite my mother's insistance that I should get one, I'm not planning on doing so any time soon; so the Pride of America is the only one I could do. Besides, I've got a whole lot of places to visit her in the mainland of the US before I get to Hawaii on my list of places to go. Pearl Harbor is about the only thing out there that interests me.

Luna Tick · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
Which is why you'll probably never see me on a cruise ship and why whenever possible I will DRIVE wherever I'm going rather than flying. Though I'm not sure if you realize that it's only within about the last 50 years that gun possession on a plane has been banned. It actually used to be quite common.

My mother has been on several cruises, including a couple with my dad before he passed away. I don't have a passport, and despite my mother's insistance that I should get one, I'm not planning on doing so any time soon; so the Pride of America is the only one I could do. Besides, I've got a whole lot of places to visit her in the mainland of the US before I get to Hawaii on my list of places to go. Pearl Harbor is about the only thing out there that interests me.

I almost forgot, there are some ships that sail from Los Angeles or San Diego to Hawaii. Those could also be done without a passport. The Pride of America is a great deal for people who want to see multiple Hawaiian islands inexpensively. It typically visits Oahu, the Big Island, Maui, and Kaui. If you flew to all those locations and stayed in hotels, it would be way move expensive than just visiting them via the ship.

Tigger · Jan 16, 2012

Luna Tick said:
I almost forgot, there are some ships that sail from Los Angeles or San Diego to Hawaii. Those could also be done without a passport. The Pride of America is a great deal for people who want to see multiple Hawaiian islands inexpensively. It typically visits Oahu, the Big Island, Maui, and Kaui. If you flew to all those locations and stayed in hotels, it would be way move expensive than just visiting them via the ship.

I have no interest in California at all; and as I said, the only thing I want to see in Hawaii is Pearl Harbor. I could fly into Hawaii, spend the day at Pearl Harbor and leave the next morning and be perfectly happy having spent all the time I need to in that state.

Luna Tick · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
I have no interest in California at all; and as I said, the only thing I want to see in Hawaii is Pearl Harbor. I could fly into Hawaii, spend the day at Pearl Harbor and leave the next morning and be perfectly happy having spent all the time I need to in that state.

There are a lot of great things to see in Hawaii besides Pearl Harbor. If you've paid for an expensive plane ticket, why not look around some while you're there? It has some of the most beautiful beaches in the world and waterfalls. But suit yourself.

If you visit Pearl Harbor, be prepared to get emotional. The memorial to the USS Arizona is very moving. You can still see the ship through the water and some pipes come up out of it. It puts into perspective the horror those sailors went through that day.

Tigger · Jan 16, 2012

Luna Tick said:
There are a lot of great things to see in Hawaii besides Pearl Harbor. If you've paid for an expensive plane ticket, why not look around some while you're there? It has some of the most beautiful beaches in the world and waterfalls. But suit yourself.

When I do travel, which is not very often, it's almost always to see places from American History. I don't get all that interested in beautiful scenery or things like that. Since Hawaii is one of our 2 most recent additions to the USA, it doesn't have a whole lot of American History for me to explore there beyond Pearl Harbor.

Luna Tick said:
If you visit Pearl Harbor, be prepared to get emotional. The memorial to the USS Arizona is very moving. You can still see the ship through the water and some pipes come up out of it. It puts into perspective the horror those sailors went through that day.

Thanks. I know several people who have visited the site, and who have had very similar experiences. It's obviously a very emotional place, and I'm sure that will make for some lasting memories, in several ways. Just as my trips to several other historical locations (Gettysburg in particular) have been very moving and "unusual" experiences.

Luna Tick · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
When I do travel, which is not very often, it's almost always to see places from American History. I don't get all that interested in beautiful scenery or things like that. Since Hawaii is one of our 2 most recent additions to the USA, it doesn't have a whole lot of American History for me to explore there beyond Pearl Harbor.

They also discovered a sunken Japanese tiny sub in Hawaii. Before the Pearl Harbor attack, one of our Naval vessels found it and sank it. They reported it, and you would think it would have alerted our forces to be ready, but they were not believed. It was a very inexperienced crew that was not taken seriously. That sub was discovered after I moved away from Hawaii, so I'm not sure if they have any tours to it, but you could look into it. Hawaii was very important strategically to the US during WW II. There are military bases there you might be allowed to visit. I visited a nuclear submarine when I lived there.

Tigger said:
Thanks. I know several people who have visited the site, and who have had very similar experiences. It's obviously a very emotional place, and I'm sure that will make for some lasting memories, in several ways. Just as my trips to several other historical locations (Gettysburg in particular) have been very moving and "unusual" experiences.

I've still never been to Gettysburg, but would love to go. I have an ancestor who who fought for the Union in the Civil War. I don't know much about him. I just know he was from New York. I don't know which battles he fought in. He may have fought at Gettysburg. We just don't know.

Luna Tick · Jan 16, 2012

Here ya go, Tigger. If you're wanting to see Hawaii more for American history than beauty, there are things to see besides Pearl Harbor. A quick search yielded this link:

HAWAII'S WORLD WAR MEMORIALS

joko104 · Jan 16, 2012

According to data Klein collected, the risk of sexual assault is nearly 50 per cent greater on a cruise ship than on land in Canada. He used data collected by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and internal industry documents used in lawsuits between 2003 and 2005.

Read more: Crime, fires compromise cruise ship safety: experts | CTV News

Tigger · Jan 16, 2012

joko104 said:
According to data Klein collected, the risk of sexual assault is nearly 50 per cent greater on a cruise ship than on land in Canada. He used data collected by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and internal industry documents used in lawsuits between 2003 and 2005.

The potential crime issue alone is enough to keep me away from those ships.

Fishstyx · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
You don't attack it by boat. You attack it by helicopter. You do it very similarly to how the Iraeli's took down the Freedom Flotilla ship a couple years ago. Once you shoot the first 3 or 4 dozen people the rest will tend to become very compliant. Then you have a ship full of hostages to bargain with. Since the crew is not allowed to carry weapons by international treaty (what a joke), the ship itself has no defenses.

What you just described is exactly why its not a "soft" target. It takes individuals that are highly trained to carry out a helicopter insertion as you described.

And someone posted a excerpt of the Achille Lauro incident. Security protocols have changed quite a bit since those days. Boarding a cruiseship isn't so different than boarding a plane, minus the nudy shots the TSA is taking these days.

Tigger · Jan 16, 2012

Fishstyx said:
What you just described is exactly why its not a "soft" target. It takes individuals that are highly trained to carry out a helicopter insertion as you described.

And someone posted a excerpt of the Achille Lauro incident. Security protocols have changed quite a bit since those days. Boarding a cruiseship isn't so different than boarding a plane, minus the nudy shots the TSA is taking these days.

True, but considering that the last bunch to hit the US did it with commercial aircraft, I don't put much by today's terrorists. The fact that I would not be allowed to carry any of my personal self-defense tools onto the ship is a large part of why I would never even CONSIDER taking a cruise. I go out of my way to not be around large groups of people without appropriate self-defense tools on my person whenever possible.

AdamT · Jan 16, 2012

Fishstyx said:
What you just described is exactly why its not a "soft" target. It takes individuals that are highly trained to carry out a helicopter insertion as you described.

And someone posted a excerpt of the Achille Lauro incident. Security protocols have changed quite a bit since those days. Boarding a cruiseship isn't so different than boarding a plane, minus the nudy shots the TSA is taking these days.

Frankly I think they are very soft targets. At least in South Florida, anyone can run a boat within 100 yards of one of these giant cruise ships. A suicide bomber could deliver a substantial payload to the water line and there's nothing anyone could do about it.

AdamT · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
True, but considering that the last bunch to hit the US did it with commercial aircraft, I don't put much by today's terrorists. The fact that I would not be allowed to carry any of my personal self-defense tools onto the ship is a large part of why I would never even CONSIDER taking a cruise. I go out of my way to not be around large groups of people without appropriate self-defense tools on my person whenever possible.

That is bizarre.

Fishstyx · Jan 16, 2012

Tigger said:
True, but considering that the last bunch to hit the US did it with commercial aircraft, I don't put much by today's terrorists. The fact that I would not be allowed to carry any of my personal self-defense tools onto the ship is a large part of why I would never even CONSIDER taking a cruise. I go out of my way to not be around large groups of people without appropriate self-defense tools on my person whenever possible.

Again, helo's are short range aircraft, for this type of attack to be effective, you'd have to do it in the open sea. So again, not a soft target due to the level of logistics required to pull it off.

AdamT said:
Frankly I think they are very soft targets. At least in South Florida, anyone can run a boat within 100 yards of one of these giant cruise ships. A suicide bomber could deliver a substantial payload to the water line and there's nothing anyone could do about it.

Meh, it'd take more explosives than your average speedboat could carry to do any real damage (as in sinking/destruction) to a cruise ship. Modern ship design in regards to subdivision and watertight integrity make this type of attack pointless if your goal was a body count.

However, what it would do is decimate the the multi-billions dollar cruise industry. Probably add 1% to the US unemployment within a month. People had to get back on planes, people to not have to take a cruise.

Luna Tick · Jan 16, 2012

The security is about like that of an airplane. It might be possible to smuggle a bomb on board, just as could happen on a plane. I would say a terrorist attack on a ship is about as likely as an attack on a plane.

AdamT · Jan 16, 2012

Fishstyx said:
Meh, it'd take more explosives than your average speedboat could carry to do any real damage (as in sinking/destruction) to a cruise ship. Modern ship design in regards to subdivision and watertight integrity make this type of attack pointless if your goal was a body count.

However, what it would do is decimate the the multi-billions dollar cruise industry. Probably add 1% to the US unemployment within a month. People had to get back on planes, people to not have to take a cruise.

Tell that to the sailors aboard the USS Cole.

Cruise Ship sinks!

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