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DMV: 900 Dead People May Have Voted

We have no way to know what actually happened because all we have is an O'Keefe video and we know those are completely unreliable. In the past they have actively portrayed something as happening that did not in fact happen the way he portrayed it. That may very well be the case here. Somebody earlier pointed out, for example, that they check the ballots when you turn them in, not when you get them... If that's so, then the whole video is totally meaningless. But I'm not going to waste time speculating about what the scam may be this time. We've been fooled enough times by this guy. He doesn't get any more chances.

One note though, of course fraud happens every election. In every national election there has ever been anywhere in the world there has always been some amount of fraud, and no matter what procedures we implement there will always be some fraud in the future. You can't reduce it to zero more than you can reduce any other kind of crime to zero no matter what you do. But, what matters isn't just "is there any crime" it is "what is the crime rate", and despite the frequent media coverage, by all indications voter fraud appears to make up an incredibly small percentage of votes cast. No matter what happens, you will continue to see stories on the news about voter fraud regularly for as long as the audience tunes in to those stories. That doesn't mean it is a significant problem. In a nation of 311 million there are incidents of every possible crime no matter if the crime rate is virtually zero or if it is high.

Now, even with a statistically minor problem like voter fraud, we should take reasonable measures to prevent it. For sure. But some politicians in both parties, but especially on the right, are trying to use the hysteria over voter fraud to force through measures that really are designed to give them personally an artificial advantage in the elections. For example, focusing on removing dead people from the registration database it easy and doesn't hurt anybody. I have no problem at all with that. Even requiring a valid photo id, no problem there. You do those two things and you have done everything you can do to prevent fraud in the polling place. But, many politicians are trying to go way beyond that. For example, some states are now planning to require not just that you have a valid ID, but that the ID be issued by the state you're in and that it have your current address. That does nothing at all to make the process more fraud proof. If you are registered there and have a valid ID, you're supposed to be voting and you can only vote one time and only where you're registered, regardless of whether you forgot to update your address with the DMV last time you moved. The reason they're pushing for those kinds of extra requirements are because they have calculated that it will skew the next election in their favor. Maybe a Democratic politician represents a district where the elderly tend to vote Republican, so he supports that measure because he knows that many people living in retirement homes that don't drive any more don't bother updating their ID, so they wouldn't be able to vote. Maybe a Republican represents a district where part of it is poorer and mostly uses public transportation and that part votes for Democrats, so he supports the measure because he knows that people who don't drive aren't required to update their driver's license when they move, so he knows that fewer people from that community will end up being able to vote.

We can take steps to prevent fraud, but anytime you let politicians change the way voting works you need to be ultra cautious. In my view the radical overblowing of the threat of voter fraud is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate you into throwing that caution to the wind and in your frenzy to rectify this largely fictional problem, to overlook the fact that they are rigging the elections in their own favor. Don't fall for it. Get your information about how serious voter fraud is from neutral studies, not O'Keefe videos and Fox headlines. Think about what is the absolute smallest change that would prevent that fraud, don't just jump on the bandwagon of anybody claiming they want to address voter fraud.
You may not get this yet, but as soon as I see the word 'Fox' in anything you post I completely ignore pretty much evberything else as drool and drivel. Ive never cited Fox...dont watch Fox...dont give a **** about them and laugh at you and people like you that spend some much time obsessing over them or use your repeated weak-ass tactic of Auuuuuuugh!!!! Fox News Fix News Fox News!!!"

EVERY election there are allegations of voter fraud, voter intimidation, etc. Wherever it exists it should be eliminated. Florida came down to panels of people with magnifying glasses hand counting every ballot to determine a national election. Iowa just came down to 8 votes. IF fraud can occur it should be identified and fixed...we shouldnt have people ramming their heads even FURTHER up their asses because they dont like the messenger.
 
EVERY election there are allegations of voter fraud, voter intimidation, etc. Wherever it exists it should be eliminated. Florida came down to panels of people with magnifying glasses hand counting every ballot to determine a national election. Iowa just came down to 8 votes. IF fraud can occur it should be identified and fixed...we shouldnt have people ramming their heads even FURTHER up their asses because they dont like the messenger.

Well, the post you replied to responds directly to this argument, so if you have any counter arguments to my post, lets hear them.
 
You may not get this yet, but as soon as I see the word 'Fox' in anything you post I completely ignore pretty much evberything else as drool and drivel. [...]
Not a very intellectual approach.

Iowa just came down to 8 votes.
The Iowa caucus vote is non-binding. From a legal or delegate standpoint it means absolutely nothing. See Iowa Republican caucuses, 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (para. 4).

IF fraud can occur it should be identified and fixed...we shouldnt have people ramming their heads even FURTHER up their asses because they dont like the messenger.
But if the messenger is a proven liar, shouldn't the message at least be inspected for honesty and validity? To be sure, it looks like a handful of ballots were available for recently deceased people. Does that mean that government-issued photo-ID is necessary for voters? Of course not -- it means that the list of registered voters must be more vigorously policed with regards to the recently deceased. Do you think that was the message that O'Keefe was intending to send?

Or do you think he was trying to send the message that government-issued photo-ID is necessary for voters? To combat voter fraud that, since he could not find, he merely committed himself (the O'Keefe M.O., BTW). . . . .
 
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The video is faked?

Wouldn't be the first time for O'Keefe. Given his history, almost anything he says is suspect. He's the boy who cried wolf on "liberal evildoing."


Now.....prove that none of those faked votes were used by Republicans. I bet you can't.

Voter ID is fine. I do suspect those that make it a big issue. A quick google search shows that 248,476 votes were cast in New Hampshire according to AP. 900 as a percentage of 248,476 works out to less than 1% Is that a huge problem? Republicans want it because a suppressed turnout is good news for them historically. Democrats don't want it for the same reason. Stop pretending like this is a giant problem that requires an expansion of federal power into how elections are run. It's not principle, it's who wins.
 
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Not a very intellectual approach.


The Iowa caucus vote is non-binding. From a legal or delegate standpoint it means absolutely nothing. See Iowa Republican caucuses, 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (para. 4).


But if the messenger is a proven liar, shouldn't the message at least be inspected for honesty and validity? To be sure, it looks like a handful of ballots were available for recently deceased people. Does that mean that government-issued photo-ID is necessary for voters? Of course not -- it means that the list of registered voters must be more vigorously policed with regards to the recently deceased. Do you think that was the message that O'Keefe was intending to send?

Or do you think he was trying to send the message that government-issued photo-ID is necessary for voters? To combat voter fraud that, since he could not find, he merely committed himself (the O'Keefe M.O., BTW). . . . .
You still arent getting it. I dont care if it was Satan or Michael Moore that demonstrated they could fraudulently get ballots. If it can happen it should be cleaned up. Voter fraud, registration fraud, all of it. That you people are so petrified of fixing the problem is very telling.
 
You still arent getting it. I dont care if it was Satan or Michael Moore that demonstrated they could fraudulently get ballots. If it can happen it should be cleaned up. Voter fraud, registration fraud, all of it. That you people are so petrified of fixing the problem is very telling.

What you don't get is that there is no problem. The O'Keefe douche could have done the same thing making up 90 false IDs, and the use of false IDs wouldn't then become a problem either.
 
You still arent getting it. I dont care if it was Satan or Michael Moore that demonstrated they could fraudulently get ballots. If it can happen it should be cleaned up. Voter fraud, registration fraud, all of it. That you people are so petrified of fixing the problem is very telling.
The Republicans only want to clean up the Democratic side of 'the problem'. That you aren't aware of that, or are avoiding it, is very telling.

Additionally, foolproof ID would probably involve surgically implanted electronic devices at birth (I'm thinking delivered by a large bore needle directly into the center of the brain, to deter tampering). Just how far down this 'zero fraud' path are you willing to go?
 
The Republicans only want to clean up the Democratic side of 'the problem'. That you aren't aware of that, or are avoiding it, is very telling.

Additionally, foolproof ID would probably involve surgically implanted electronic devices at birth (I'm thinking delivered by a large bore needle directly into the center of the brain, to deter tampering). Just how far down this 'zero fraud' path are you willing to go?

I'm a registered libertarian, haven't voted for a major party candidate since 2003, and vote in every election. I don't give a **** about republicans OR democrats. I've made that very clear. You REALLY want to pretend we haven't had issues of fraud and intimidation raised in every major election? Of course we have. Don't like that we have reached a point where voter ID is necessary? Blame it on the scumbags that have been registering people illegally, voting for others, stuffing ballot boxes, bribing people for their votes, losing ballots, finding mystery bags of ballots, denying military votes, etc.

Showing ID. It ****ing pathetic that so many people claim that's a violation of rights.
 
[...] Showing ID. It ****ing pathetic that so many people claim that's a violation of rights.
So, that's a yes on the surgically implanted electronic ID devices at birth?
 
[...] Don't like that we have reached a point where voter ID is necessary? Blame it on the scumbags that have been [1] registering people illegally, [2] voting for others, [3] stuffing ballot boxes, [4] bribing people for their votes, [5] losing ballots, [6] finding mystery bags of ballots, [7] denying military votes, etc. [...]
1. Are these illegally registered people voting? If so, can you give us any examples? If not, do you think it could swing an election?

2. This could happen. Do you think it does? Do you think it could swing an election?

3. Photo ID would stop this how?

4. Photo ID would stop this how?

5. Photo ID would stop this how?

6. Photo ID would stop this how?

7. Photo ID would stop this how?
 
So, that's a yes on the surgically implanted electronic ID devices at birth?

That's a yes on showing the same thing you have to show to buy a pack of cigarettes. I'll leave the hyperbole to your machinations.
 
1. Are these illegally registered people voting? If so, can you give us any examples? If not, do you think it could swing an election?

2. This could happen. Do you think it does? Do you think it could swing an election?

3. Photo ID would stop this how?

4. Photo ID would stop this how?

5. Photo ID would stop this how?

6. Photo ID would stop this how?

7. Photo ID would stop this how?

You admit all of those things happen, right? Showing an ID helps resolve fraudulently gaining and casting ballots. I'd go with public beatings and significant jail time for all of it. photo I'd doesn't silve every problem. I'm for attacking ALL o the problems and BTW YOU were the ones that stated some people dont care about solving all the problems. I'm not that guy.
 
I can't imagine why anyone would be allowed to vote without photo ID. How in the hell could you verify who they are? I've spent most of my life in Greece, Czech and Spain where if you attempted to vote without national identification which proves who you are and your citizenship, you would be shown the door but not the door of the booth.

What the hell is wrong with people?
 
I can't imagine why anyone would be allowed to vote without photo ID. How in the hell could you verify who they are? I've spent most of my life in Greece, Czech and Spain where if you attempted to vote without national identification which proves who you are and your citizenship, you would be shown the door but not the door of the booth.

What the hell is wrong with people?

This is my 40th year of voting in public elections. I have never had to provide anything but my signature which is matched against the duplicate of the voters application I filled out to register to vote. The person behind the desk simply matches them up and I vote.

There never has been any problem.
 
That's a yes on showing the same thing you have to show to buy a pack of cigarettes. I'll leave the hyperbole to your machinations.
But that ID can be faked, so you have not solved the voter fraud issue.

However, since some legal people will be unable to obtain valid ID's, or will be deterred from legally voting because of the requirement of a photo ID, you have prevented legal votes from being cast. In all estimation, you will prevent more legal votes than illegal votes from being cast... which is, of course, the GOP goal.
 
You admit all of those things happen, right? Showing an ID helps resolve fraudulently gaining and casting ballots.
I admit that 2 of 7 could be reduced by a photo ID law (assuming they are actually occurring).

Will you admit that a photo ID law would prevent more legal votes than illegal votes?
 
But that ID can be faked, so you have not solved the voter fraud issue.

However, since some legal people will be unable to obtain valid ID's, or will be deterred from legally voting because of the requirement of a photo ID, you have prevented legal votes from being cast. In all estimation, you will prevent more legal votes than illegal votes from being cast... which is, of course, the GOP goal.
How can you deter legal votes from being cast if they cannot be legally are cast without ID?
 
I can't imagine why anyone would be allowed to vote without photo ID. How in the hell could you verify who they are? [...]
Generally speaking, they have to register long before they can vote (say, 30 days). During the registration process they usually have to present some form of ID (photo is not necessarily required).

When you go to vote, they check to see if you are registered to vote. If not, you don't get to vote (at least directly). If you are registered, then ID requirements vary according to local regulations (photo ID, utility bill with correct name and address, signature verification, sometimes nothing at all).

In the U.S., citizens are not required by law to carry government identification. Unless, of course, they are operating a motor vehicle, carrying a concealed weapon, or some such. You can walk down the street with no ID if you so please... no men in dark suits are allowed to accost you and ask: "Your papers, comrade?" (well, perhaps except in Arizona. . . . )
 
How can you deter legal votes from being cast if they cannot be legally are cast without ID?
Read my post #94, and if that doesn't explain it then please reword your question (I'm having some difficulty deciphering).
 
Read my post #94, and if that doesn't explain it then please reword your question (I'm having some difficulty deciphering).
I understand. If it is illegal to cast a vote without ID, how can you stop legal voting unless you prevent someone from voting who has ID?
 
Generally speaking, they have to register long before they can vote (say, 30 days). During the registration process they usually have to present some form of ID (photo is not necessarily required).

When you go to vote, they check to see if you are registered to vote. If not, you don't get to vote (at least directly). If you are registered, then ID requirements vary according to local regulations (photo ID, utility bill with correct name and address, signature verification, sometimes nothing at all).

In the U.S., citizens are not required by law to carry government identification. Unless, of course, they are operating a motor vehicle, carrying a concealed weapon, or some such. You can walk down the street with no ID if you so please... no men in dark suits are allowed to accost you and ask: "Your papers, comrade?" (well, perhaps except in Arizona. . . . )

So is your issue that requiring someone to have an ID is a barrier to voting or is it that they shouldn't be asked to prove who they are? I am just trying to figure out where you are coming from.
 
I understand. If it is illegal to cast a vote without ID, how can you stop legal voting unless you prevent someone from voting who has ID?
It is not illegal to cast a vote without ID in many locations. Not all states have the same laws.

The argument is that in a state where a photo ID is not currently required, some people who do not currently have a photo ID would not vote if the law was changed to require a photo ID. Even though they are legal to vote (they don't want to get, or cannot get, the ID -- which is not simple to get).
 
So is your issue that requiring someone to have an ID is a barrier to voting or is it that they shouldn't be asked to prove who they are? I am just trying to figure out where you are coming from.
The former.

Although there are valid libertarian arguments to the latter (proving residence would be reasonable, but we're veering off into the weeds).
 
I admit that 2 of 7 could be reduced by a photo ID law (assuming they are actually occurring).

Will you admit that a photo ID law would prevent more legal votes than illegal votes?

Not at all. Its histrionic BS. People show ID for damn near everything. They show it to get basic services. The pretense that gosh...they just don't have any legal ID, and don't have it for every basic service, but would be responsible enough to vote is a joke. But if someone is really really truly incapable of getting an ID and registering and then voting, they should blame the ****heads that have made careers out of illegally registering people, contributing to the problem, an the ****heads they support and that support them.

And as was seen in Florida 2002...every vote counts. Every legal citizen SHOULD vote. Legally
 
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