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Thread: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

  1. #321
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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    some how I knew you would dodge the question because again theres no logic behind your stance.
    thanks LMAO
    Homosexual men are sexually attracted to other men. Normal men are attracted to women. If we allow one group to shower with the group to which they are sexually attracted, how can we prohibit the other group from doing the same thing? What's fair about that?

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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Homosexual men are sexually attracted to other men. Normal men are attracted to women. If we allow one group to shower with the group to which they are sexually attracted, how can we prohibit the other group from doing the same thing? What's fair about that?

    LMAO you still havent answered my question, why do you keep dodging it? LMAO
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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    I think it could be possible he is basing those statements on his theological interpretation of The Bible. It's a possibility to think about.

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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Well, first off they aren't "truths", basic or otherwise. I always lose any inclination towards Buddhism with the the first premise "Life is suffering". It needn't be from a humanistic perspective, nor is it how an Abrahamic God would describe it.
    I underrstand the problem you are talking about, I always thought that was an issue with Buddhism too, but part of it is a problem with translating Pali (the language of the scriptures) into English. The word is dukkha. Here's a better definition than simply 'suffering':
    No single English word adequately captures the full depth, range, and subtlety of the crucial Pali term dukkha. Over the years, many translations of the word have been used ("stress," "unsatisfactoriness," "suffering," etc.). Each has its own merits in a given context. There is value in not letting oneself get too comfortable with any one particular translation of the word, since the entire thrust of Buddhist practice is the broadening and deepening of one's understanding of dukkha until its roots are finally exposed and eradicated once and for all. One helpful rule of thumb: as soon as you think you've found the single best translation for the word, think again: for no matter how you describe dukkha, it's always deeper, subtler, and more unsatisfactory than that.
    Dukkha.

    Saying that life needn't be suffering from a humanistic perspective isn't the issue, as we're not discussing it in humanistic terms.

    Ah, I just found a great explanation...

    ONE of the consequences of sentient biological existence is the experience dukkha. Dukkha is sometimes translated as suffering but in actual fact encompasses all senses of unsatisfactoriness, even including pleasure (which evolution has contrived will always be a transient sensation - lest it detract too much from the grim business of survival).

    In its most manifest form dukkha includes severe suffering such as that of the animal caught in a trap which will gnaw through its own limb in order to attempt to gain some form of temporary survival, perhaps to return to its young. At the other end of the scale is the subtle dissatisfaction of the billionaire who has everything , and then discovers that his business rival has a slightly larger yacht.

    Dukkha ensures you can never have enough, you've always got to have more.

    Any sentient being living in an evolved and evolving biosphere will inevitably experience dukkha. Dukkha is the appearance to the mind of the habits of millions of years evolution , of attempting to get the competitive edge, of never being satisfied with second place, of perpetual restlessness
    From Dukkha, Dawkins, Darwinism
    Last edited by Andalublue; 01-15-12 at 03:36 AM.
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  5. #325
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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Well, first off they aren't "truths", basic or otherwise. I always lose any inclination towards Buddhism with the the first premise "Life is suffering". It needn't be from a humanistic perspective, nor is it how an Abrahamic God would describe it.
    Actually this is not quite correct, from an Abrahamic perspective. Suffering and evil are inherent in any life not completely focused on and united to God. I believe this is not too far from the Buddhist perspective, it is certainly not too far from the Vedantin one. The problem with Buddhism is there are certain aspects of it that, without further knowledge, I have problems understanding if they are fundamentally at odds with the Christian perspective or just a different way, though without ever simply equating things across such a wide cultural and symbolic space, of expressing similar truths. The doctrine of Anatta is one such aspect.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    ... the idea there is as many forms as practitioners. I do not think this is the best way to put it, certainly everyone's spiritual journey, even in Christianity, is individual, but everyone also requires the support of a living religious form and tradition. If you completely try and turn such a religion into pick'n'mix then you will not get far.
    Tradition is very important in all Buddhist thought. Each school, especially important in Zen, traces its teachings back through a line of masters to its foundations. If you follow a particular tradition, you will be aware of that lineage, but you are never expected to accept anything on faith alone. You must use your own reason, your own mind and you must meditate.

    There is an extent to which one can 'pick'n'mix'. In doing so you may stray away from the traditional teachings of the school whose teachings you learned your practice from, but if that works for you, what's the problem? Without dogma, no one is going to say, "you aren't following our teachings, you are not a Buddhist, you must leave our school". There is no membership of schools, indeed most people who practice Buddhist teachings would never call themselves a Buddhist because doing so feeds into dualism, the sense of 'this' and 'other'. We are all the same, we are all part of one existence, so saying, "I am this" and "You are that" perpetuates the false perception of a world divided into individuals. The idea of the oneness of self and environment is fairly central in many schools of Buddhist teaching.

    There's no merit placed upon affiliation to a particular school or tradition. I first learned about meditation and Buddhist practice from a monk connected to a monastery of Tibetan tradition. I found greater depth in study and practice with an order of monks from a Japanese Zen tradition, and I now practice a more Zen-like style of meditation and go on retreats at a Zen centre from a different lineage. I have been on retreat at monasteries of Thai and Khmer Theravada tradition and another of Chinese Chi-an tradition. No one was interested in knowing what my background in practice had been. They simply accepted and taught me the knowledge accumulated by their tradition. I was welcome to participate in their services and ceremonies without having to accept their philosophical viewpoints.

    You could ask, therefore, am I a Buddhist. I would answer that I am nothing.
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  7. #327
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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Good for you! I'm sure you already know this, but of course it is not incompatible for a Buddhist to believe in God, creation, sin etc. but it's just that these concepts don't feature in Buddhist philosophy. I can't think of any reason why a Christian couldn't accept the Four Noble Truths.
    1. Life is dhukka - roughly, suffering. We are born, age, get ill and die.
    2. The cause of suffering is craving; craving for wealth, gratification, life.
    3. That there can be a cessation to suffering, to craving, and to reliance on it.
    4. The way to release oneself from it is by the Eightfold Path.

    I'm sure Christian theologists might have their own reasons for rejecting this, but belief in a God, from a Buddhist perspective, doesn't preclude understanding these basic truths.
    Theologists don't reject those 'truths' they just get them in a different manner (via the Spirit) and describe them a bit differently:

    1. Life is suffering, but the yoke of Jesus is a joy.
    2. Crave only the Kingdom.
    3. To cease suffering, die on the cross with Christ and rise with Him to walk in righteous footsteps every day.
    4. The Way is Christ and by faith in Him the Spirit will guide you.


    Not really so different, just Christians have a focal point/example of a messiah who is God Himself, also founded in books of wisdom. Siddhartha's not a God, but really what's the diff to someone who doesn't believe in supernatural metaphysics. Theist vs. Philosophy is the only real distinction.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 01-15-12 at 05:48 AM.

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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Dear All,

    This thread doesn't seem the correct place to discuss these wider issues of the compatibility or otherwise of Christian and Buddhist thought. I think I'm more guilty than anyone else of derailing discussion of the Pope's thoughts on homosexuality.

    If anyone's interested I have started another thread to share thoughts and observations on the Christian/Buddhist religions/philosophies. It's here....

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/religi...post1060111936

    Please join me, but let's try not to revisit the homosexuality and SSM issue unless we absolutely have to.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 01-15-12 at 06:38 AM.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    it is the point, at least its my point, gay marriage has ZERO impact when it comes to "threatening society"
    Yes, I think you, me and Samhain agree on that.
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    Re: Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    The child, in this case female and according to the natural order of things, has to know what a man and woman are doing. Again, it is the natural order of things. It is how we survive as a species.

    Two men kissing, do you look away?

    Do you understand why normal people find homosexuality repulsive? It's not an accident.
    You still haven't answered my question about marriage among heteros who can't have children, or sex that can't result in children (such as oral sex). Why are you running away?
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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