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Thread: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    That's what happens when you promise to pay and you can't pay... you default. That's reality - it's time we had a dose of it.
    We can pay. If some day we really were to hit a point where we actually could not pay, that would be a total disaster. Pretty much the end of being a first world country. Why intentionally try to make that happen when it doesn't have to? When we could just reduce spending instead of tearing the whole country down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You keep using the word "randomize"... there's nothing random about it. it's very focused actually - especially the examples I provided.
    So you acknowledge that it would just mean increasing spending in some areas and decreasing it in others, with no decision making to determine which would be which, but you don't think that's randomization? I don't get it. Just flipping a coin would do that same thing.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    We can pay.
    Only if the Fed prints more money. Otherwise, we cannot pay.


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    So you acknowledge that it would just mean increasing spending in some areas and decreasing it in others, with no decision making to determine which would be which, but you don't think that's randomization? I don't get it. Just flipping a coin would do that same thing.
    How did you get that I "acknowledged" any of your ideas in what I said? No I didn't acknowledge it - in fact, I disagreed and said there was nothing random about it. I know you don't get it... it sounds like you won't get it either, which is a shame.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Huh? Of course. Deficit = spending - revenue.
    Is a living organism going to cut of its own head when you feed it more?

    Is the wealth return for spending a positive return?
    Last edited by Henrin; 01-12-12 at 06:16 PM.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    To try to paint it as though Democrats are and have been trying to spend like crazy while Republicans have always been trying to reel it in is obviously not an accurate description, right? Bush2 was in the whitehouse while the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress for 6 years. They used that time to turn the surplus and booming economy they got from Clinton into a massive deficit and economic collapse. Even now the Republicans refuse to accept the largest deficit reduction proposals which are consistently coming from Democrats, not Republicans.

    Whichever party doesn't have the white house likes to use slogans about how the opposite party president is spending too much, but that isn't the reality. The reality is that Congress, not the president, decides how much to spend and both parties tend to make the calculation that they would lose more votes by cutting programs people like than they would by doing nothing.
    So by that logic, the Democrats are 100% responsible for the Federal Budget from 2006-2010 and the resulting economic collapse and record deficits? Every year, by law, the President is required to submit a budget to Congress. The irony is Obama's budget failed to even garner ONE VOTE in the Senate. All Republican and even Democratic-led budget proposals have consistently failed in the Senate. The Senate failed to even PROPOSE a budget in the first 2.5 years of the Obama presidency. To absolve Obama of all spending decisions is both dishonest and naive. You do realize the disconnect between blaming Bush for record spending and defending Obama by blaming Congress within the same paragraph, don't you?

    I never defended Bush and his spending policies. The fact you would even bring him into this argument shows your attempt at diverting from the fact that the Senate hasn't passed a budget in three years. Are you willing to admit this is irresponsible or not?

    Why not just accept the Democrat's massive deficit reduction proposals instead of rejecting those, then threatening to destroy the economy in order to get their own preferred, smaller, deficit reduction proposals through? IMO it's just posturing. They're looking to get soundbites they can put in their ads that make it sound like they're being tough on the deficit and the Democrats are trying to spend like crazy.
    Why not just accept the Republican's massive deficit reduction proposals instead of rejecting those, then threatening to destroy the economy in order to get their own preferred, smaller, deficit reduction proposals through? It's hilarious to me that those same soundbites were prominent throughout the 2008 Democratic campaign to criticize Bush for his deficits and spending. The fact that the Democrats would even pretend that they are being tough on the deficit is what sounds crazy. I'm not one to discount the Republicans political posturing as I find many of them to be doofuses, it just amuses me to see hyper-partisans like yourself attribute all failures in compromise on the side you disagree with.
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Only if the Fed prints more money. Otherwise, we cannot pay.
    That's just one of those things right wingers say. It doesn't mean anything. It's borrowing, not creating, money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    How did you get that I "acknowledged" any of your ideas in what I said? No I didn't acknowledge it - in fact, I disagreed and said there was nothing random about it. I know you don't get it... it sounds like you won't get it either, which is a shame.
    Feel free to explain your argument if you have one. There doesn't seem to be anything planned or rational about an approach that just results in cuts in some areas and increases in others basically at random.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Is a living organism going to cut of its own head when you feed it more?
    Ahh "stave the beast" eh? Look around man. Does it seem to you like that is working? Does spending go down when revenues do?

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Ahh "stave the beast" eh? Look around man. Does it seem to you like that is working? Does spending go down when revenues do?
    Obviously not. Government will spend as much money as it is allowed to do so. It does lead to unpopular deficits, however, and politicians become more focused on how to fix them. Look no further than the bipartisan position of reducing federal spending.
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    So by that logic, the Democrats are 100% responsible for the Federal Budget from 2006-2010
    No, I wouldn't say it's 100% on either party ever. 2006-2008 the Democrats controlled Congress, but not the white house, so really only a plan that was at least palatable to both parties could be passed because of the veto. 2008-2010, that'd be mostly the Democrats, but the minority party always has a great deal of influence too as we saw for example with all the compromises the Democrats had to make to get health care through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    and the resulting economic collapse
    "Resulting"? The economic collapse wasn't caused by the deficit. Obviously. There are three main theories for what caused it. 1) Too many ARM home loans, rates went up, they got called in, people panicked. 2) Too much money going to the rich to spur investment, not enough going to working people to provide the actual revenues required to sustain the puffed up valuations created by all the investment. 3) Hi finance hijinx. In reality it's probably a combination of all three along with a hundred other less central causes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    To absolve Obama of all spending decisions is both dishonest and naive.
    I'm not. You seem to be stuck in the standard conservative binary thinking mode. Both parties share the blame. I keep saying that over and over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    Why not just accept the Republican's massive deficit reduction proposals instead of rejecting those, then threatening to destroy the economy in order to get their own preferred, smaller, deficit reduction proposals through?
    Er what? None of those things make sense in reverse. The Democrats didn't threaten to destroy the economy and their deficit reduction proposals are larger, not smaller...

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's just one of those things right wingers say. It doesn't mean anything. It's borrowing, not creating, money.
    Borrowing from who - at what % interest rate which will be paid from where? It's not just something right wingers say - it's MATH.


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Feel free to explain your argument if you have one. There doesn't seem to be anything planned or rational about an approach that just results in cuts in some areas and increases in others basically at random.
    That's the funny thing I already have explained it but you're not getting it. I urge you to go back and read it again and then repeat as many times as necessary but I'm not going to repeat myself especially since it's more about you not WANTING to understand ... rather than an inability on your part. I can't you think...
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's just one of those things right wingers say. It doesn't mean anything. It's borrowing, not creating, money.
    What's the right winger talking point? That we print money? Please tell me you aren't serious.
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

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