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Thread: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The significance is that you're only identifying half of the story as the problem.
    Explain what you see as the impact of that. The executive has no choice but to inform Congress when they owe more. It's a mechanical process, nothing the executive has discretion about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Spending decreases can be rejected without passing a bill into law. Constitutionally, the House must approve spending... however, the House would not have to approve or deny spending if the request for a debt increase did not come from the President. Get it yet?
    You're getting mixed up. A request for a debt increase and spending are totally different things. If the Congress decided to spend say $3 trillion, but didn't approve a debt increase required to cover $1 trillion of it, for the executive to follow the law it would just have to default on $1 trillion each year. Although, arguably, there would actually be no legally acceptable path for the executive in that situation. Either he defies Congress's orders by cancelling programs and whatnot that they ordered him to enact or he violates the constitution by failing to honor the debts of the US. Probably his only actual choice would be to simply continue to borrow since violating a law is less illegal than violating the constitution, but either way, that'd be no good.

    Anyways, to actually reduce spending does require a bill to be passed. If Congress can't pass a budget, the previous one just continues.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Explain what you see as the impact of that.
    The impact is that you're ignoring half of the story, focusing on Congress... and either purposely or accidentally regurgitating the White House narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The executive has no choice but to inform Congress when they owe more.
    The executive also has no choice but to provide Congress a yearly budget... oops!

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It's a mechanical process, nothing the executive has discretion about.
    So you're really saying we all have no choice but to spend another 2 Trillion dollars and there's just nothing we can do about it?


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You're getting mixed up. A request for a debt increase and spending are totally different things.
    I don't think I'm getting them confused at all. When incoming revenue is lower than what is being spent (spent being the operative word - ie., if we continue to spend this may increase the debt) the debt must be increased to cover the additional spending.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    If the Congress decided to spend say $3 trillion, but didn't approve a debt increase required to cover $1 trillion of it, for the executive to follow the law it would just have to default on $1 trillion each year. Although, arguably, there would actually be no legally acceptable path for the executive in that situation. Either he defies Congress's orders by cancelling programs and whatnot that they ordered him to enact or he violates the constitution by failing to honor the debts of the US. Probably his only actual choice would be to simply continue to borrow since violating a law is less illegal than violating the constitution, but either way, that'd be no good.
    While I appreciate your attempt to state that Congress is the only mitigating factor in all of our economic woes, the Executive branch plays their part in identifying additional spending, new programs that he provides to Congress (by political party) to write and support.


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Anyways, to actually reduce spending does require a bill to be passed. If Congress can't pass a budget, the previous one just continues.
    Some reductions would require a bill, others would not. For example, Congress does not have to pass a bill to freeze government salary and benefits. Another way is to NOT use the Emergency Spending measures - not using this function would not require a bill.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    So you're really saying we all have no choice but to spend another 2 Trillion dollars and there's just nothing we can do about it?
    Er what? No... As I keep saying over and over, we only have one viable choice for reducing spending- by actually reducing spending. Just refusing to pay for stuff we spent just makes things worse. Owing creditors $2 trillion for bonds or whatever is much better than owing the same creditors $2 trillion that you just refuse to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Some reductions would require a bill, others would not.
    Yeah that's right. So just trying to handicap Congress's ability to act doesn't reduce government or reduce spending, it just randomizes it. Reductions in some places, increases in others, at random.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Why not just raise it $8 bazillion, so we don't have to raise it again for a long time?
    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Because they would spend it by August.
    But we would have some killer health care and bridges. Just kidding.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    How about we get rid of the Debt Ceiling and watch Chinese heads explode.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Democrats certainly agree we need to reduce the deficit. In fact, they're way ahead of Republicans on that score at present. The Democrats are consistently proposing larger deficit reduction packages than the Republicans are. The reason is that deficit reduction can be accomplished on three fronts- cutting domestic spending, cutting military spending and increasing revenues. Republicans have a hard time tackling military spending or revenues, where Democrats are open to doing all three.

    The difference between just reducing spending and refusing to raise the debt ceiling is that you need more votes to pass a revised budget than you need to refuse to pass a bill increasing the debt ceiling. The Republicans have the house, but not the senate, so they can't just pass their budget, but they can block an increase in the debt ceiling. So, they use it as a threat to try to coerce the senate into doing what they want. But, in my view, that isn't remotely the right way to go about it. Both sides agree that we need to reduce spending. They should just be working towards a way to do that together. The whole hostage taking tactic the GOP used last time with the debt ceiling had a devastating consequence- our credit rating was lowered even though they didn't actually go through with it. If they had failed to reach an agreement and they actually had defaulted, it would have been catastrophic. The way to address our budget issues is not to constantly threaten to destroy the economy to try to spur people to action, it is to honestly enter into budget negotiations and compromise.
    The problem is that the Senate hasn't passed a budget in three years. It seems only recent to me that both sides have been bipartisan in reducing spending. I don't remember a lot of hooplah about runaway spending prior to the emergence of the Tea Party and the Republican takeover of the House. It's completely partisan and disingenuous to blame a disagreement on the side you disagree with. Compromise failed; that's a black mark on both sides and particularly a mark on the failure of leadership. When the only budget put forth by the President for 2011 received ONE vote by the Democrat-controlled Senate, then you realize drastic action needed to be taken by someone in government to address our runaway spending problem.

    Because we all know that Congress unconditionally supporting a debt limit increase is always the correct action:

    "The fact that we're here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means 'The buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit." - Senator Obama, 2006
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    The problem is that the Senate hasn't passed a budget in three years. It seems only recent to me that both sides have been bipartisan in reducing spending. I don't remember a lot of hooplah about runaway spending prior to the emergence of the Tea Party and the Republican takeover of the House.
    Neither party seemed to care about spending until recently. I'd agree that the Republicans probably drew attention to the issue first, but now the Democrats have gone further with it than the Republicans are willing to go.

    That said, not passing a budget doesn't mean spending increases, it means it stays the same. Passing a budget those years could very well have meant more spending.

    [QUOTE=Rhapsody1447;1060105615]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    Because we all know that Congress unconditionally supporting a debt limit increase is always the correct action:

    "The fact that we're here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means 'The buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit." - Senator Obama, 2006
    Maybe you misunderstand that quote. He's not saying you shouldn't raise the debt ceiling, he is saying that you shouldn't spend so much that you have to raise it. Certainly he has always opposed defaulting on the debt.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The last link I put in the OP was the debt clock... there's two additional views on the debt clock - both for 2015 (one on the CBO projections given our current pathway, one if we do NOTHING between today and 2015. One is showing 17 Trillion of debt, the other in the 20's.) Both show we are rapidly becoming Greece given the amount of spending vs. GDP. It's simply a matter of a few years.... and given our current President and Congress's continued spending, we will drive off the cliff sooner rather than later; no matter what rhetoric is provided.

    THAT'S our reality. Spin it however you want; nothing is showing itself to diverge us from that path.
    The reality is that the last administration took a balanced budget and spent like a drunken sailor while reducing revenues with irresponsible tax cuts. The record growth of Govt. under Bush is very hard to reverse. Our only way out is to grow the economy and increase revenues to the level of Bush's spending. You do know that revenues are at 2000 levels currently, the combo of deep recession and increased spending is what has put our debt so high. When the GDP grows and revenues are at 18% again (instead of below 15%) the picture will be much different.

    President Bush has presided over the largest overall increase in inflation-adjusted federal spending since Lyndon B. Johnson. Even after excluding spending on defense and homeland security, Bush is still the biggest-spending president in 30 years. His 2006 budget doesn’t cut enough spending to change his place in history, either.

    Total government spending grew by 33 percent during Bush’s first term. The federal budget as a share of the economy grew from 18.5 percent of GDP on Clinton’s last day in office to 20.3 percent by the end of Bush’s first term.

    Stephen Slivinski is director of budget studies at the Cato Institute.

    The Republican Congress has enthusiastically assisted the budget bloat. Inflation-adjusted spending on the combined budgets of the 101 largest programs they vowed to eliminate in 1995 has grown by 27 percent.
    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3750
    Last edited by iguanaman; 01-12-12 at 04:49 PM.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    But we would have some killer health care and bridges. Just kidding.


    Seriously...all that 'health care' they are crowing about that they are doing 'for' the future generations...I wonder how grateful those future generations will be when they are stuck with a bill for services that they are never going to be able to benefit from.

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    Re: Obama to ask for increase to debt ceiling in a 'matter of days'

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post


    Seriously...all that 'health care' they are crowing about that they are doing 'for' the future generations...I wonder how grateful those future generations will be when they are stuck with a bill for services that they are never going to be able to benefit from.
    I'm going to assume that you are fully aware that the health care reform package actually reduces the deficit and that you're just playing like you didn't know that for dramatic effect....

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