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Thread: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    It's not like I'm expecting him to admit anything that I find wasteful as evidenced by his complete dismissal of the $1.75T costs the study I posted found. I hope I'm wrong though.
    I don't dismiss the cost, which is certainly impressive. Is it worth the cost? Again, I have no way of knowing. It's like a doctor prescribing a year-long course of Expensonol, at a cost of $10,000 a month. Is it worth it? How can I say if I don't know what it's prescribed for, how serious the condition is, or how well the medication actually works? There is no way to judge. Apparently you would say, "$10,000 a month! Outrageous!!" And then maybe you drop dead in six weeks because that's the only treatment that would cure your disease.

    Also, when you list the total cost of these regulations, does that contemplate the cost of NOT having the regulations? For example, I'm sure it would have cost millions, or even billions of dollars to implement tighter regulations on mortgage lenders, credit ratings agencies, and derivatives traders. Outrageous? Well, the cost of NOT having those regulations turned out to be in the tens of trillions of dollars.
    Last edited by AdamT; 01-10-12 at 04:31 PM.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    Before I attempt the impossible task of reviewing all current regulations to find ones that would be considered wasteful, let me better understand your position on the issue. Do you think the regulatory burden is too much and needs to be reduced or do you believe the country is too deregulated as it is and needs additional regulation?

    Obama's recent regulatory review found $2 billion in wasteful, costly regulations.
    That's too general. Wasteful depends on what is being regulated. As we saw in the leaning market, regulations served a real purpose. We saw this with tainted peanut butter as well. Deregulation sometimes has a consequence. Speaking in generalities often leads us to inaccurate conclusions. few to none say all regulations need to be cut, so why would it be too much to ask exactly which ones?

    And if they found actual wasteful regulations, they ahd to document which ones those were, and then we can assess them and cut the appropriate regulations, or combine a few, but if we don't indentify, we can't do anything.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    *tink*, *tink*, *tink*....Ahem, Boo? Still there? Could you address Rhapsody's question directly please?


    thanks.


    j-mac
    J, there are other things. You know that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    And the former?

    It's not impossible to say whether overall regulation is too much or too little. It's an opinion, not a fact. Studies (like the one I posted) show us the economic cost of the current regulatory framework and it's perfectly reasonable to form an opinion based on that evidence.
    Not really as Adam T points out. It can be quite costly, not to mention dangerous, to not have some regulation. we really do have to be more specific.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No see, they want you to delve through the 88,000 pages of this years regulations so that they can bog each objection down with pages of name calling drivel, meanwhile the topic of the thread is completely lost.

    What a waste of time.

    j-mac
    No, I actually expect our leaders to that, and for us to understand that generalizations are too fruitless to actually reach any conclusions. I suspect there are some regulations that can either be removed or combined, but cost alone is not the critieria. If a regulation is needed, it is needed. If it is not, we shouldn't have it. This is not an unreasonable position. But to jsut say they cost, get rid of them? Too many questions are left unanswered.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    So, you would argue, and liklely they cna argue this as well, that such isn't aviable yet. A logical approach and one that should be a winning one, provided it really isn't available yet.
    That is what the article claims, it is not available...as for me I have no idea, do you?


    But each regulation should be appraoched individually, and not with a grouping that just says do away with regulations. Is this difficult to grasp?
    Are you under the assumption that Conservatives want to eliminate ALL regulations? Haven't we, collectively, been over this before or are you being obtuse?

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    That is what the article claims, it is not available...as for me I have no idea, do you?
    Nope. I don't. But that doesn't change my point. You argue just that, and I would think you'd win with it, assuming the facts aren't different than reported.


    Are you under the assumption that Conservatives want to eliminate ALL regulations? Haven't we, collectively, been over this before or are you being obtuse?
    Nope. I merely object to cost alone meaning that there are too many regulations. I think there are other criteria, like the need for a regulation. Merely saying it is costly doesn't tell me if a regulation is needed or not.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I merely object to cost alone meaning that there are too many regulations. I think there are other criteria, like the need for a regulation. Merely saying it is costly doesn't tell me if a regulation is needed or not.
    I believe there is consensus in this position on both sides of the isle, but I could be wrong.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    It's not like I'm expecting him to admit anything that I find wasteful as evidenced by his complete dismissal of the $1.75T costs the study I posted found. I hope I'm wrong though.
    The paper was intended to estimate the cost differentials from regulation on small, medium, and large firms as a means to provide evidence for the idea that economies of scale can minimize transaction costs such as these; it was not intended to provide the "real" costs of regulation to society. For example; dumping industrial waste into the Great Lakes would be "less costly" for manufactures than disposing said waste in a responsible fashion. Therefore, the "cost" of responsible disposal is then shifted towards society in the form of illness and depletion of strategic/natural resources. In many instances (such as illness that results from direct exposure to industrial waste), the cost that society bares is greater than the cost manufactures would incur in the event that they had disposed of the waste responsibly in the first place.

    To gain a full perspective on the real "costs" of regulation, we would have to quantify the costs that society would bare sans regulation(s).

    You should find this paper interesting.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    To gain a full perspective on the real "costs" of regulation, we would have to quantify the costs that society would bare sans regulation(s).
    So true....regulation is not in a vacuum. Which is why any going through getting rid of regulations should be a process that includes a cost benefit of geting rid of those regulation. There are definately times where better enforcement of regulation is called for instead of another regulation. At the same time, regulations are not "bad" and just a way for evil liberals to make conducting business difficult.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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