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Thread: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Unfortunately those who lost their jobs won't see much advantage, but everyone who buys a washing machine or dryer will, in the form of lower prices. Ask the Soviet Union, or Cuba, or North Korea how well closed economies work.
    But that is a short lived advantage. You buy a washer and save $50, for a washer that will last 10 years. That's $5 per year benefit. Meanwhile, the Mexican that made it will be earning $500 or more per month with his "comparative advantage" than he otherwise would have, 12 months a year, for those 10 years.

    I am not advocating a closed economy. I am debatiung that we have lost our comparative advantage, and any arguments which use it to ignore the mess we are in are stupid arguments. Not unlike you mentioning N. Korea. It is not hard to see.

    When the results of opening up your trade barriers are ever growing trade deficits, evenutally reaching near to 5% of your GDP, you are getting pummeled on comparative advantage. There is essentially not enough other things where you are now having an increased advantage.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 01-09-12 at 11:03 AM.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    ............... So when we lose our income but want to retain our standard of living, to where do we turn nowadays? The federal government, who will literally pay us to keep consuming. If we did today what we would have done 100 years ago, that self-sufficiency would detrimentally impact the bottom lines of many corporations. Dependence on government is profitable to large corporations, and therefore we have a growing government to render us dependent on them and make self-sufficiency non-feasible.
    Which is essentially what has happened over the last two decades. Having folks on unemployment for three years is a glaring example of how we have lost "comparative advantage", but yet subsidized our continued decline there with government handouts.

    We are staring stagflation in the face. As I noted earlier, the only thing that is keeping us "relatively" stable right now is that Europe is in such a mess, and that we look better then they at this moment, so money is still coming here when it would otherwise seek other homes.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    But that is a short lived advantage. You buy a washer and save $50, for a washer that will last $10 years. That's $5 per year benefit. Meanwhile, the Mexican that made it will be earning $500 of more per month with his "comparative advantage" than he otherwise would have, 12 months a year, for those 10 years.

    I am not advocating a closed economy. I am debatiung that we have lost our comparative advantage, and any arguments which use it to ignore the mess we are in are stupid arguments. Not unlike you mentioning N. Korea. It is not hard to see.

    When the results of opening up your trade barriers are ever growing trade deficits, evenutally reaching near to 5% of your GDP, you are getting pummeled on comparative advantage. There is essentially not enough other things where you are now having an increased advantage.
    Of course we're not just talking about washers and dryers, but all products. When you erect trade barriers you are in effect raising the cost of goods and services (increasing inflation) and stifling free market competition. That is why Americans objected so strenuously to tariffs in the early days of the Republic when they were the government's primary source of revenue. It didn't work then and it won't work now.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Of course we're not just talking about washers and dryers, but all products. When you erect trade barriers you are in effect raising the cost of goods and services (increasing inflation) and stifling free market competition. That is why Americans objected so strenuously to tariffs in the early days of the Republic when they were the government's primary source of revenue. It didn't work then and it won't work now.
    Again, this is exceedingly narrow-minded. No one is talking tariffs as applied in the earlier times of the Republic as a means of raising revenue. But we have lost our comparative advantages, and you are unable to counter that. When we impose egregious regulations on production and labor, via such as our EPA and NLRB and a host of other agencies, while we import products that cost less primarily because they are produced with no such added costs, we are destroying advantage. That argument is not to do away with our standards, but is pointing out the fact that liberals will not admit, mainly that excessive regulation, taxation, and redistribution will kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    It's interesting to watch a liberal debate for free trade against a conservative.
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Of course we're not just talking about washers and dryers, but all products. When you erect trade barriers you are in effect raising the cost of goods and services (increasing inflation) and stifling free market competition. That is why Americans objected so strenuously to tariffs in the early days of the Republic when they were the government's primary source of revenue. It didn't work then and it won't work now.

    How are tariffs affecting the countries that we export to? Like China? Seems that they are winning that war.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447 View Post
    It's interesting to watch a liberal debate for free trade against a conservative.
    LOL ... with you. To further add to the irony, how much did we hear while W was President about "Republicans" sending jobs overseas, essentially by the claim that they were in the pocket of big business, and big business was relocating many jobs ? The movement of jobs is as much a part of our trade imbalance, and lack of comparative advantages in many of its definitions, as any other measure of where things that we buy are made, and why.

    I did not mention the EPA before, but that is another agency that has hobbled us with absurdity, and its comparative disadvantages. Liberals are not arguing for "free trade", IMMHO, so much as they are trying to pretend that liberalism, and its negaitve impact on capitalism, and our economy, is not of any consequence.

    Like it or not libs, the US is now at a comparative disadvantage. And liberalism is first and foremost what did it.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 01-09-12 at 12:11 PM.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Like it or not libs, the US is now at a comparative disadvantage. And liberalism is first and foremost what did it.
    If your going to make an accusation like that why not be a little more specific. Please point out how liberalism has made the US uncompetitive.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    If your going to make an accusation like that why not be a little more specific. Please point out how liberalism has made the US uncompetitive.
    I believe his previous paragraph, and previous posts, mention that "When we impose egregious regulations on production and labor, via such as our EPA and NLRB and a host of other agencies, while we import products that cost less primarily because they are produced with no such added costs, we are destroying advantage"

    We are at a competitive disadvantage worldwide when we handicap our own processes.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    If your going to make an accusation like that why not be a little more specific. Please point out how liberalism has made the US uncompetitive.
    Start here:

    Number one job today is to create jobs
    The number one job today is to create jobs. America only works when American's are working. And nothing would do more to balance the budget than to go from 9.2 percent back down to 4 percent unemployment, taking 5 percent of people off of unemployment, off of food stamps, off of Medicaid, put them back with a job, paying taxes, giving their family a future.

    And I'll be candid. We did not need a deficit commission. We needed a jobs commission who talked with people who only create jobs. I am sick and tired of Congressional hearings, where people who have never created a job show up to explain what their theory is of doing something they have never done.

    I am going to outline two large strategies that will move us towards job creation: an American Energy Plan and an Environmental Solutions Agency to replace the Environmental Protection Agency.
    Source: Speech at 2011 Conservative Political Action Conference Feb 11, 2011

    Unions want to take away right to secret-ballot elections
    As unions cannot win many secret-ballot elections to organize workers, they have come up with a new solution. It's not to make the union more desirable. It's simply to take away the American worker's right to have a secret-ballot election. This would repeal reforms to protect workers from intimidation and extortion that go back to 1935. It's not an idle left-wing fantasy: it actually passed the House of Representatives in early 2007 with almost no public notice. Under the Orwellian name of the "Freedom of Choice Act," this legislation is backed by President Obama, who has vowed to sign the measure if passed by Congress, where it enjoys wide Democratic support. This the Democratic Congress and president are fighting to eliminate a fundamental American right just to make it easier for their union allies to acquire more members, more dues, and more power. And yet 89 percent of the American people don't want workers to lose their secret-ballot rights.
    Source: Real Change, by Newt Gingrich, p. 35 Dec 18, 2007

    Union leaders prefer protection over competition
    In the United States, there exists a coalition of union leaders who prefer protection over competition; environmental extremists who value nature over the well-being and prosperity of their fellow citizens; and liberal intellectuals who distrust the fluidity and uncertainty of the market and prefer the orderliness of command bureaucracies. This liberal coalition complains about companies’ outsourcing jobs while insisting on corporate taxes that encourage companies to go overseas. They prefer that government impose on business obsolete, absurd work rules, even though these raise costs, lower productivity, and make America less competitive in the world market. These liberals believe in expanding regulation even when it fails to meet any cost-benefit test and clearly drives jobs out of the US. The Left refuses to reform litigation or create a better system of civil justice even though it knows the explosion of lawsuits makes it less desirable to create jobs and invest in the US.
    Source: Gingrich Communications website, Newt Gingrich 2012 | Leadership Now, “Issues” Sep 1, 2007

    Unions focus on politics; corporations on doing business
    The media have in recent years become fixated on the questions of corporate contributions and what they call “soft” money for financing campaigns, but the truth is, nothing on the right is at all comparable to what the unions do. First of all, corporations are much less capable of being organized--each of them operates politically on its own--and they are, as profit-seeking institutions, much more inclined to seek accommodation with whoever is in power. Labor bosses, on the other hand, have a strategic view of politics and spend a great deal of time and effort developing long-term political muscle. By contrast corporate leaders focus mainly on their respective businesses and spend very little time of effort on politics. When major business leaders do for one reason or another concern themselves with Washington, they usually set up Washington offices or lobbyists and leave matters to them.
    Source: Lessons Learned the Hard Way, by Newt Gingrich, p. 71-72 Jul 2, 1998

    Newt Gingrich on Jobs
    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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