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Thread: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Obama doesn't have the tools available to him that Reagan had, even if he mistakenly thought that this was a supply-side recession. Reagan instituted large tax cuts, and in fact taxes were too high at the time. Taxes aren't too high now. They are lower than they were under Reagan. Reagan's cut-taxes-but-not-spending policies created huge deficits, and debt, as those policies were followed up by both Bushes. That has also hamstrung Obama's response. He's done more or less what he should have done under the circumstances and as a result things are starting to turn around. There's very little he can do about the depressed real estate market and the economy won't be completely healthy until that sector recovers. Unfortunately that will probably take at least three or four years.
    I had already noted that Obama inherited a different set of problems. However, you are quite wrong about the effects of Reagan's tax cuts. Revenues to the government increased by about 70% during Reagan's two terms. The dirty secret is that while Reagan lowered some rates, he closed more loopholes, such that he increased revenues not only by improving the economy, but by actually changing the tax codes to produce more revenue. 1980 revenues were 517 B. 1988 revenues were 909 B. They only dipped in 1983, and that was his Recession year. Further, until the dot-com bubble kicked in, Clinton was doing no better with his budgets than anyone else.

    All here: Historical Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary

    Reagan essentially raised taxes.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 01-06-12 at 05:10 PM.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I had already noted that Obama inherited a different set of problems. However, you are quite wrong about the effects of Reagan's tax cuts. Revenues to the government increased by about 70% during Reagan's two terms. The dirty secret is that while Reagan lowered some rates, he closed more loopholes, such that he increased revenues not only by improving the economy, but by actually changing the tax codes to produce more revenue. 1980 revenues were 517 B. 1988 revenues were 909 B. They only dipped in 1983, and that was his Recession year. Further, until the dot-com bubble kicked in, Clinton was doing no better with his budgets than anyone else.

    All here: Historical Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary

    Reagan essentially raised taxes.
    A simplified tax code would increase the tax base, which is the easiest way to increase revenues without the shock of rate increases.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Yes, since 1994, but discouraged workers have never been at this level since being dropped from the labor force

    Please answer the following questions

    We have a growing population and a declining labor force, how is that positive?
    We have people dropping off the unemployment roles because theya re discouraged, how is that positive?
    We have almost 24 million unemployed/under employed Americans, how is that positive?
    We have more unemployed today than when Obama took office by over a million, how is that positive when the debt has increased by 4.5 trillion dollars?
    It all depends on what your objective is. If you want to see the US collapse than this is good news. If you want to see the US prosper and grow and become financially stable, this is bad news. The work force participation rate sucks......we have people entering the beggar class in droves ....... we have unsustainable medicare and social security ponzi schemes that require a healthy increase in new workers......BO's use of debt financing to pay for his socialist BS is going to crush the future generations under a mountain of debt. Yeah, I can see why all the liberals love this data ...... we are one step closer to the economic collapse they hope to use to transform the US into a complete welfare state.
    I love the smell of burning moonbat in the morning.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    A simplified tax code would increase the tax base, which is the easiest way to increase revenues without the shock of rate increases.
    Agreed. And I would submit Reagan's performance as an example, although he certainly left more simplification to be done. Worth noting that Obama's own Simpson-Bowles Commission recommended same. And Obama ignored them.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    A simplified tax code would increase the tax base, which is the easiest way to increase revenues without the shock of rate increases.

    I hope you mean increasing the number of millionaires that pay taxes, not by raising taxes on the low brackets by eliminating the mortgage deduction. A consumer economy needs to tax income not spent or risk weakening the economy by further reducing spending by the middle class. Taking money from those that would spend it in the economy is self defeating.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Sorry but how old were you in 1981-82 when there was a 20 misery index? How is this economy worse than that one?
    In 1981-1982, household net wealth steadily increased year-over-year.



    Between 2007 and 2011, this was not the case (as citizens net wealth was decreasing).



    Which is why citing the misery index is naive.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The real issue is there is no "real" unemployment rate. There are just a number of ways of looking at the problem, and they are all legitimate in their own way. But it's convenient if we generally use a single metric, which makes it easier to track and to compare to other periods. As it happens, we've settled on the U-3 number as that benchmark.

    Who is this amorphous "we"? If you are talking about 'we the people' I'd ask when that vote was, cause I missed it. If you are talking 'we' as in the congress, well, they do a lot of **** that when the people get tired of it they get booted.

    And if you are saying, as I suspect you are, 'we', as in liberal Obama supporters, in the attempt to shell game the public like you have been trying to do ever since this disaster of a President was sworn in, then I would say that at best you are being disingenuous to yourself, and at worst just flat out lying.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Agreed. And I would submit Reagan's performance as an example, although he certainly left more simplification to be done. Worth noting that Obama's own Simpson-Bowles Commission recommended same. And Obama ignored them.
    What Reagan did to increase revenues was increase SSI payments leading to the 2 trillion SS surplus which his GOP sucessors promptly spent. That act alone caused the economy to languish until Clinton. Taking money from those that would spend it in th economy is self defeating. Taxing money not spent boost the economy when the Govt. spends what the individual cannot. In a consumer economy spending=growth.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 01-06-12 at 05:33 PM.

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    What Reagan did to increase revenues was increase SSI payments leading to the 2 trillion SS surplus which his GOP sucessors promptly spent. That act alone caused the economy to languish until Clinton. Taking money from those that would spend it in th economy is self defeating. Taxing money not spent boost the economy when the Govt. spends what the individual cannot. In a consumer economy spending=growth.

    Consumer based economy is what progressives have been moving this country toward since the 70s as a way to destroy capitalism.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: U.S. Payrolls Gain More-Than-Expected 200,000; Jobless Rate Falls to 8.5%

    I always prefer payroll survey over household surveys for obvious reasons. The first being that home telephone surveys (which accounts for a great deal of the data collection) are insufficient in this day in age when 25% of all households do not have land line telephones.

    Payroll data tells a different story:

    ADP today reported that employment in the U.S. nonfarm private business sector increased by
    325,000 from November to December on a seasonally adjusted basis. The estimated advance in
    employment from October to November was revised down slightly to 204,000 from the initially
    reported 206,000.
    The increase in December was the largest monthly gain since last December 2010 and nearly
    twice the average monthly gain since May when employment decelerated sharply.
    Employment in the private, service-providing sector rose 273,000 in December, which is up from
    an increase of 176,000 in November. Employment in the private, goods-producing sector
    increased 52,000 in December, while manufacturing employment increased 22,000.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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