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Thread: US military cutbacks

  1. #191
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    In many regards yes. But you're talking about how you want to be treated like everyone else; yet seem more than willing to take other people's money to pay for your education because you feel entitled to it. It's not much different than other forms of government support. Same group.
    Would you rather we have the massive amounts of vets in the unemployment line or on the street because they used their college years fighting, like after Vietnam? There's a big difference between a program that we pay into and that virtually pays for itself versus a program where I possibly take the job a civilian who has put in the work to earn his job simply because I offer the added benefit of a tax break. Huge difference. With the GI Bill, I still have to make the grades, still have to make myself competitive in the civilian sector, and still have to compete on an uneven playing field with people that have at least 4 years experience in their field while I have none. As far as trying to demonize us for a program that has people paying into it without reaping the benefits, that is ridiculous. Many, many programs have the same risk/reward program of you get this but you to do this. If you don't do this, we keep the money, you get nothing back. That's the risk you take when entering into a program with such a high return for your investment. It is also a voluntary program that is thoroughly explained to troops before they sign up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    When was the last time America was actually threatened? When was the last time my rights and liberties were on the line against a force other than the US government? My freedom was already secured by those whom came before you. Our aggressive, offensive, occupational wars do nothing positive for my freedoms; in fact it gives an excuse to government to act counter to it. A strong military which is used exclusively for defense instead of offense can provide the same aggregated effects that our overly used and aggressive military tactics secure for us now. In fact, it stands that it could possibly be even "safer" by not pissing off entire regions of the world and playing into their propaganda.
    Define threatened. If you want to take into account all of the attempted terrorist attacks against us in the past few years, I'd say alot. There was that whole 9/11 thing too. Or was that just the muslim community lashing out at us? Or would you rather wait, Ron Paul style, until a "Red Dawn" style invasion happens before we do anything? Or how about a mushroom cloud outside your bedroom?
    What defensive tactics do you speak of? Would you have us just line up on the Mexican and Canadian borders and take turns making sure no one comes across? I love you libertarians use of the "defense instead of offense" mantra but you never explain it. You can't put your head in the sand and hope no one comes over here. It doesn't work that way. One of the first things the founders did, upon declaring independence, is send John Adam and Ben Franklin to France. What would you have had the founders do if the Brits would have assassinated them? That's no threat to our soil is it? We just let those two great men be killed with no reprecussion?
    As far as the US Government taking your freedoms, sorry bro, I don't speak for the legislators that take our freedoms. If you have a beef with them, I suggest you write your congressman instead of trying to find a way of making me responsible for it. There's also that whole moving to another country thing. I mean, if its that bad, just leave. Its hard to get into our country legally. Not out.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  2. #192
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Oh, and to play devils advocate on the other argument about being the biggest, baddest mofo on the block, and not getting invaded, etc...


    Germany, Britain, France, Italy, China, Russia, Sweden, and Spain ALL spend FAR less on their military budget (that we know of) than we do, and none of them have been invaded in quite some time.
    So we are on par with those countries? Thats despicable to think. I cringe at the very thought. Our military is one of the biggest reasons we are better than them. Unlike the European countries you mention there, if we collapse economically, we can still repel anyone that thinks they would like to try and see how weak we are until we get our act together. Even China, with all its economic power, is still a notch below us in part due to our military. The military isn't the only reason we're better, but its in the top 3, on any list.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  3. #193
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I was responding to your statement:




    I was demonstrating to you that unlike Iran, who has not invaded anyone, we have invaded many. There is simply no need for us to spend almost as much as the rest of the world combined.

    There will be no solving the nations debt problem until that realization is made.
    Iran invaded American soil in 1979 and in violation of the Geneva Convention, took 53 Americans hostage and held them for 444 days.

    In 1983, the Iranian funded proxy army, Hezbollah, bombed the Marine Barracks in Beirut, killing 241 Americans.

    In 1996, the Iranian funded proxy army, Hezbollah, bombed the Khobar Towers, killing 19 Americans

    If the Iranians--or anyone else--doesn't like the way they're being treated by the United States, then I say tough ****!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #194
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Contractors are, initially, more expensive. However, the money the gov't saves long term on healthcare, etc evens it out I believe. I have no data to back that, its just what I've heard in the contractor circles as I have looked into that sort of work vs reenlisting before. I will look around for data to back it up.
    I've been on both sides. I was in the military, and I hired/worked with contractors. I can assure you, the contractors made more (the ones I worked with at least, IT dudes). I wish I had a stat for how many were trained by the military to just have them get out, and then get paid 3 times what they were making in the army, for less hours.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

  5. #195
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    I've been on both sides. I was in the military, and I hired/worked with contractors. I can assure you, the contractors made more (the ones I worked with at least, IT dudes). I wish I had a stat for how many were trained by the military to just have them get out, and then get paid 3 times what they were making in the army, for less hours.
    Like I said, I agree the upfront costs are more. Its the benefits the gov't doesn't have to pay that levels it out. Let me look into it and see if I can find data to back that up.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  6. #196
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Like I said, I agree the upfront costs are more. Its the benefits the gov't doesn't have to pay that levels it out. Let me look into it and see if I can find data to back that up.
    It really wasn't the point I was going for.

    We can cut other things than the military. Not that I am a supporter of 700 worldwide bases or 350 vessels, but I am not sure the time when North Korea, Iran, Africa, and Afghanistan are going on that we need to cut our military. Retooling it, yes. Cutting it...eh...
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

  7. #197
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Would you rather we have the massive amounts of vets in the unemployment line or on the street because they used their college years fighting, like after Vietnam? There's a big difference between a program that we pay into and that virtually pays for itself versus a program where I possibly take the job a civilian who has put in the work to earn his job simply because I offer the added benefit of a tax break. Huge difference. With the GI Bill, I still have to make the grades, still have to make myself competitive in the civilian sector, and still have to compete on an uneven playing field with people that have at least 4 years experience in their field while I have none. As far as trying to demonize us for a program that has people paying into it without reaping the benefits, that is ridiculous. Many, many programs have the same risk/reward program of you get this but you to do this. If you don't do this, we keep the money, you get nothing back. That's the risk you take when entering into a program with such a high return for your investment. It is also a voluntary program that is thoroughly explained to troops before they sign up.
    All I'm saying is a lot of you rally against other government support programs, yet are more than willing to engage in the ones you can take. "virtually pays for itself"? Only because you can take money from people who will never use the service. If you pay into the GI Bill and don't go to college, shouldn't you get the money you put into it back? It's your money? But no, instead of being "treated like everyone else", you have a sense of entitlement due to what you have done and feel that it is owed to you. You want to be treated like everyone else, yes? That's what you said. Pay for your own college instead of taking the money of your fellow servicemen in order to fund your personal education.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Define threatened. If you want to take into account all of the attempted terrorist attacks against us in the past few years, I'd say alot. There was that whole 9/11 thing too. Or was that just the muslim community lashing out at us? Or would you rather wait, Ron Paul style, until a "Red Dawn" style invasion happens before we do anything? Or how about a mushroom cloud outside your bedroom?
    What defensive tactics do you speak of? Would you have us just line up on the Mexican and Canadian borders and take turns making sure no one comes across? I love you libertarians use of the "defense instead of offense" mantra but you never explain it. You can't put your head in the sand and hope no one comes over here. It doesn't work that way. One of the first things the founders did, upon declaring independence, is send John Adam and Ben Franklin to France. What would you have had the founders do if the Brits would have assassinated them? That's no threat to our soil is it? We just let those two great men be killed with no reprecussion?
    As far as the US Government taking your freedoms, sorry bro, I don't speak for the legislators that take our freedoms. If you have a beef with them, I suggest you write your congressman instead of trying to find a way of making me responsible for it. There's also that whole moving to another country thing. I mean, if its that bad, just leave. Its hard to get into our country legally. Not out.
    Terrorist attacks can never bring down America in and of themselves. They are a probability that given enough time will work themselves out. Even 9/11 which is arguably one of the most successful terrorist attacks on the 50 State's soil proper didn't claim as many as cars do in a year. A true threat is another State engaging in war against us. And that we have not seen since WW II. I'm not trying to "make you responsible" for the legislation either; merely showing that the overall aggressive actions and misuse of the military by the government has not made me any free-er. If anything, it's consumed liberty. But keep pretending that you're doing something real for American sovereignty and freedom while robbing others of their money to go to school and then condemning others on the government dime.

    Want to be treated like everyone else....my ass.
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  8. #198
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    So we are on par with those countries? Thats despicable to think. I cringe at the very thought. Our military is one of the biggest reasons we are better than them. Unlike the European countries you mention there, if we collapse economically, we can still repel anyone that thinks they would like to try and see how weak we are until we get our act together. Even China, with all its economic power, is still a notch below us in part due to our military. The military isn't the only reason we're better, but its in the top 3, on any list.
    Define better. Also, no one is going to invade any of those european countries on account of economic collapse. Observe Ireland, or Greece. Economic collapse, no invasion forces, no war, no looting, pillaging, raping, burning, etc.

    Not trying to compare is to them, just saying that, while being the biggest and baddest, and having all the best new weapons, and the most of them, ONCE served a purpose, the world is a different place than it once was. I view these things as being largely obsolete, from the defensive standpoint. We now have what it commonly referred to as an international community. Think of all these countries as you would a neighborhood. If one neighbor tosses a lit bottle of 151 on the side of someone else's house, and burns it, what are all the other neighbors likely to do?

    And don't say that lit bottle would never have happened had the neighbor had the biggest bullies to guard the house; 9/11 still happened. Another still COULD happen. Military has NOTHING to do with those sorts of securities.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  9. #199
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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Who has Iran invaded was your response when I explained my use of Iraq and Kuwait as my example. What does that have to do with anything? We haven't invaded Iran, we are not at war with them, we have not engaged in any direct combat with them.
    Now, on to counter points vice nit picking posts. I have no issue with cutting military spending. I have already said this. I believe we, as gov't employees, can always be better stewards with taxpayer dollars. Cutting programs such as the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle are good moves that should be made. However, when the military only makes up 4.7% of the GDP, but that is the place we are double dipping, and (something no ones talking about) possibly triple dipping on in regards to the automatic cuts that go into place due to the super committee's failure, thats's bad policy. There are many places where cuts can be made other than the military. I actually like the fact that we are cutting some troops. It trims the fat and makes what we have left more elite, at least in the Marine Corps. I know the US Army has had a lot of problems with lower recruiting standards. The only issue I have is when we execute slash and burn style cuts that neuter us as a force. I used the example earlier of my unit not being able to afford gas to drive 10 miles nor the rounds to allow 90 Marines to shoot 35 rounds a piece. This could result in an international incident in the future due to lack of training.
    I will ask you this. Do you think we should shut down some of our embassies overseas or leave them in place?
    Military threats to the US are not proportional to our GDP. What is important is the amount we spend on the military relative to other countries. And we spend almost as much as the rest of the world COMBINED. We have lots of room for cuts in military spending and still spend twice as much as the next biggest spender, China. I'm glad you agree we need to cut military spending. Diplomatic embassies make more sense to me than having so many unnecessary military bases around the planet. The US can no longer afford to be the world's police.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US military cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Iran invaded American soil in 1979 and in violation of the Geneva Convention, took 53 Americans hostage and held them for 444 days.

    In 1983, the Iranian funded proxy army, Hezbollah, bombed the Marine Barracks in Beirut, killing 241 Americans.

    In 1996, the Iranian funded proxy army, Hezbollah, bombed the Khobar Towers, killing 19 Americans

    If the Iranians--or anyone else--doesn't like the way they're being treated by the United States, then I say tough ****!
    That's not even a fraction of people killed by the US, or even by Israel, the proxy army for the US.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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