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Thread: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

  1. #41
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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    I think a public option would be great, if we could pay for it. I don't believe would could in fact keep the costs of a public option down. I don't disagree that medical costs are increasing, or that a public option wouldn't be a great thing. My problem is that we don't have the money for the program.

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    Not to mention all the tax revenue that would be lost, when the private health insurance industry collapses.
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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You patronize me, accuse me of being ignorant of economics, then claim that it's ok for a business to not make a profit?
    Kiddo, just answer the question. Try to follow what is being discussed. Are you familiar with the law of supply and demand? It's the most basic of all concepts in economics. Can you explain how it works? I already explained it above, but maybe it would help if you googled it and read about it some other places too? Until you can at least explain that most basic idea you really aren't in a position to be telling others about your economic views.
    Last edited by teamosil; 01-05-12 at 05:30 PM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Wow... Ok, lets start at the beginning... Capitalism is the theory that if you have many producers competing for customers they will each try to make the better product at the lower price to get more customers until the product is being sold at as near to cost as possible. That's why capitalism is efficient- because it is a system for eliminating profit margins. Without capitalist competition companies would just charge several times what it costs them to produce things. That massive profit taking waste is the main problem capitalism is designed to solve. But, that doesn't always work right left to it own devices. Health care, the way it is set up now, isn't a properly functioning market. It has lots of issues. For one, consumers don't negotiate directly with producers. Consumers get a job, the employer picks and insurance company, a doctor decides what goods and services the person should buy, the insurance company negotiates actual costs. So that breaks the whole supply and demand thing. The employer doesn't care about the product's quality and the doctor doesn't care about the cost. Also, it is a very hard industry to break into. It requires tens or hundreds of billions of dollars. So there are really only 3 or 4 major players. That means very little competition is actually going on. The idea with the public option is that it would force them to start competing again by establishing a lower cost alternative that they would need to compete with.
    If your problem is with the set up of the consumer market for insurance and doctors, remove the problem that legislation created.
    You don't don't legislate more garbage, to fix the old garbage.
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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If your problem is with the set up of the consumer market for insurance and doctors, remove the problem that legislation created.
    You don't don't legislate more garbage, to fix the old garbage.
    How is that a problem that legislation created? Employers choose to offer health insurance to entice employees because they could get it at a lower cost by buying group plans. Doctors decide what medical care people need because they have the expertise. There are so few options and so little competition between them because it is a very expensive market to get in to. Those aren't the result of legislation, they're just the nature of that market.

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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    How is that a problem that legislation created? Employers choose to offer health insurance to entice employees because they could get it at a lower cost by buying group plans. Doctors decide what medical care people need because they have the expertise. There are so few options and so little competition between them because it is a very expensive market to get in to. Those aren't the result of legislation, they're just the nature of that market.
    Because of state and federal legislated minimum benefits, those that shouldn't be mandated in the first place, because they aren't insurable events.
    Not to mention that there is a hugely gross assumption that the government would be a more efficient provider of insurance.
    Do we have any proof?
    Maybe a little, but not enough to say that it would be guaranteed, to be better.

    For the most part here, most people who want a "public option" don't understand what insurance is and what it's supposed to do.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Because of state and federal legislated minimum benefits, those that shouldn't be mandated in the first place, because they aren't insurable events.
    Not to mention that there is a hugely gross assumption that the government would be a more efficient provider of insurance.
    Do we have any proof?
    Maybe a little, but not enough to say that it would be guaranteed, to be better.

    For the most part here, most people who want a "public option" don't understand what insurance is and what it's supposed to do.
    Do you not understand what "option" means? No one was going to be forced to choose the public option. If they preferred they could have chosen from several private insurance plans, which is more choice than most people have now.

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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Because of state and federal legislated minimum benefits, those that shouldn't be mandated in the first place, because they aren't insurable events.
    That isn't one of the things I said was preventing market forces from working correctly, so that doesn't address my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not to mention that there is a hugely gross assumption that the government would be a more efficient provider of insurance.
    There are many potential efficiency problems. Insurance companies drawing profits is one impediment to efficiency that a public option would not have to worry about. Most importantly it would break up the sort of tacit agreement not to compete with one another on price that you get pretty much any time a market with a high barrier to entry has only a few players. But, no doubt, in a properly working market private industry has the capability to be more efficient than government. I certainly hope that would be the case here. Hopefully the public option would force the companies to start competing on price again and they would indeed turn out to be more efficient at it, in which case nobody would use the public option. Maybe all that needs to happen is for the public option to break the logjam and get the private companies back on track. That'd be ideal. But, if they don't get back on track, it would always be there as a check.1

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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Do you not understand what "option" means? No one was going to be forced to choose the public option. If they preferred they could have chosen from several private insurance plans, which is more choice than most people have now.
    What if the option is less efficient than all the private choices?
    Would it still get to exist, at a loss to the government?

    You know that once we let these cats out of the bag, they're much harder to put back, even if it doesn't work out as well as everyone says.
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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That isn't one of the things I said was preventing market forces from working correctly, so that doesn't address my point.
    Just because you didn't say it, doesn't mean it isn't one of the problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    There are many potential efficiency problems. Insurance companies drawing profits is one impediment to efficiency that a public option would not have to worry about. Most importantly it would break up the sort of tacit agreement not to compete with one another on price that you get pretty much any time a market with a high barrier to entry has only a few players. But, no doubt, in a properly working market private industry has the capability to be more efficient than government. I certainly hope that would be the case here. Hopefully the public option would force the companies to start competing on price again and they would indeed turn out to be more efficient at it, in which case nobody would use the public option. Maybe all that needs to happen is for the public option to break the logjam and get the private companies back on track. That'd be ideal. But, if they don't get back on track, it would always be there as a check.1
    Profit is really marginal here and people getting stuck on it, is foolishly short sighted in my opinion.
    You guys are letting social beliefs get in the way of actual function.

    The fact that insurers have to create micro insurance providers in every state, is a problem, that too was not addressed.
    There are many problems with insurance, but the assumption that a public option will "cure the ills" of it, is very very short sighted.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Insurers Profit From Health Law They Fought

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I have.

    You are the one that's not paying attention to the numbers.
    Care to show me a link to the numbers on a working healthcare program that costs more than the US's private option only program?

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