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PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

If you are traveling 20 miles a day it's better to get a bicycle rather than spending $40,000 on a vehicle, and the expense of a home solar station, that will be useless in the trade-in market.
I mentioned intelligent posts earlier. Apparently that didn't 'take'.
 
A bicycle is not much good if your commute requires you to travel on highways. Or, if you need to travel during the work day. Or if, for example, it rains or snows where you live. Or is really hot. Or really cold.

And there's no reason that an EV would be useless in the trade-in market, as they can be recharged from the grid if desired.

Ya, the last thing we need is for anyone in this obese nation to get wet, hot, or cold. That would be an inconvenience and we cant have that can we?
 
1. There is no evidence or statement of fact that the Keystone XL oil would be processed by American refineries (there is speculation that it could be simply shipped overseas at said refinery, which is claimed to be in a free trade zone (Port Arthur, TX)). That oil from sands projects such as that in Canada is very dirty and very low quality is common knowledge in the industry -- it would be difficult to refine, more costly to refine, and result in greater pollution to refine, all compared to typical 'American' oil (light sweet Texas crude). Bottom line, the nastiest type of oil there is (more or less).

2. Were the oil to be processed by American refineries, there is no evidence or statement of fact that the refined product would be used or sold in America (again, there is speculation that it could be shipped overseas, possibly due to quality issues mentioned above). In that scenario, America gets the pollution, the oil companies get the profits, and some other country gets the oil.

3. The number of American jobs seems to be rather 'manipulated'. Other non-oil-industry estimates are around 5,000 construction jobs, which would of course end when pipeline construction is completed. There is evidence and statement of fact that the job estimates by those who stand to profit from construction of the pipeline that their job numbers are "job-years"; for example, if 1,000 jobs are created for 3 years, then they count that as 3,000 jobs. FYI.

It should be noted that roughly half of the Keystone pipline project has been completed and is in use -- from Canada to Cushing, Oklahoma. One "XL" portion of the pipeline (phase 3) would simply run from Cushing OK down into Texas, and would be used to transport American oil as well. Phase 4 would be an additional pipeline from Canada to Steele City, Nebraska.

It really doesn't matter to me whether the oil goes south or not though, as mentioned, I'd prefer it went to our neighbors. If Americans don't want however many jobs there might be, or the reliable oil supply; then that is their decision and a rather short-sighted one.. Canadians will just sell it to someone else, and are doing so.

And after you spend the next generation trying to find alternatives sources of energy rather than coal or oil, others who never made these same sacrifices will certainly take advantage of it immediately.
 
[...] And there's no reason that an EV would be useless in the trade-in market, as they can be recharged from the grid if desired.
I don't think that was exactly what was being referred to, but we're clearly dealing with the 'just say no' crowd -- so whatever they do mean is mostly irrelevant or illogical.
 
QUOTE=AdamT;1060096450]A bicycle is not much good if your commute requires you to travel on highways. Or, if you need to travel during the work day. Or if, for example, it rains or snows where you live. Or is really hot. Or really cold.

Those conditions weren't mentioned but is a $40,000 plus investment worth 20 miles a day? Taxis might be less.
And there's no reason that an EV would be useless in the trade-in market, as they can be recharged from the grid if desired.

Few people are buying new Volts. Who would seriously want to buy a used one?? Would you?
 
I mentioned intelligent posts earlier. Apparently that didn't 'take'.

Perhaps you still don't understand what "ad hominem" means.

"Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting)".
 
It really doesn't matter to me whether the oil goes south or not though, as mentioned, I'd prefer it went to our neighbors.
The speculation that I've read is that it would go to Europe. The point is that the argument that it will be used here is not based upon any stated fact(s).

And after you spend the next generation trying to find alternatives sources of energy rather than coal or oil, others who never made these same sacrifices will certainly take advantage of it immediately.
The viable alternative is here today, as I've already outlined (as least as far as gasoline is concerned). Countries that continue to champion outmoded forms of energy that are mostly controlled by extremist nations and added greatly to their trade deficit will, eventually, go the way of the source of that energy (i.e., the dinosaurs).
 
Those conditions weren't mentioned but is a $40,000 plus investment worth 20 miles a day? Taxis might be less.

From an economic standpoint it would not be justified at today's prices -- unless perhaps you include the externalities (i.e., the cost of responding to global warming). But prices will come down over time.


Few people are buying new Volts. Who would seriously want to buy a used one?? Would you?

Sales have been less than expected, but they are increasing every month, even with the recall. EVs are still too expensive for mass appeal. I'd certainly be happy to buy a used Volt.
 
The average electric commuter vehicle (Chevy Volt, for one example) could be completely powered by a home solar station. There is no need for anyone who drives less than 20 miles per day to ever use another drop of gasoline on the highway ever again. Right now. Today. Tell our children. . . .

Do you have any idea how long it would take for a home solar station to fully charge an electric vehicle??

First of all, solar power is extremely ineffecient. It has TONS of potential, but with todays technology, it is the most expensive form of energy per watt. It is very expensive to buy and install, and represents a huge investment that will be obsolete within a few years.

The shortcomings of solar power notwithstanding, it would take a full day of constant sunshine, meaning no cloud coverage and direct sunlight, to get a single charge. If you never had to go more than a short distance from your home, then that would work just fine, but if thats the case you really have no reason to spend $40 to $60,000 on the car and charging system in the first place. But a scooter or something.
 
Perhaps you still don't understand what "ad hominem" means. [...]
Wow. Repetition as an argument. When one makes an error, intentionally repeating it doesn't seem to be a wise course of action. May I suggest you get a second opinion?

In any case, I am not going to debate the meaning of clearly defined and understood terms (although I realize that is a tactic of the right).
 
The speculation that I've read is that it would go to Europe. The point is that the argument that it will be used here is not based upon any stated fact(s).

More speculation I see. Ever heard of something called "proof", or "facts" to back up your speculations ??
 
From an economic standpoint it would not be justified at today's prices -- unless perhaps you include the externalities (i.e., the cost of responding to global warming). But prices will come down over time.

From the environmental stand point, what do we do with the 400 to 800 pounds of lithium ion batteries from every single electric car once they have exhausted their life cycle?
 
From an economic standpoint it would not be justified at today's prices -- unless perhaps you include the externalities (i.e., the cost of responding to global warming). But prices will come down over time.




Sales have been less than expected, but they are increasing every month, even with the recall. EVs are still too expensive for mass appeal. I'd certainly be happy to buy a used Volt.

How many cars have lower prices than they did 20 years ago ??

It's not the used Volt that's the problem, it's the used batteries.
 
From the environmental stand point, what do we do with the 400 to 800 pounds of lithium ion batteries from every single electric car once they have exhausted their life cycle?

Just bury them in the ground with the millions of mercury laden CFL bulbs.

No problems, right ?
 
Apparently the US auto market, apart from a few experimental souls, have "just said no" to the Chevy Volt.

The PJ Tatler » Happy First Birthday Chevy Volt: No Profits, Few Sales, Four Fires and One Big Obama Administration-General Motors Cover-Up
May I remind you, yet again, that you chastised someone else's source as biased, yet you come up with yet another right wingnut source?

Based upon your arguments so far, I must stress that I am not saying your source is wrong simply because it is a trumpet of right wingnuttery, I'm just amazed at the hypocrisy.

I also wonder why your argument that contains fewer words than the link you provide to support' your argument (and I'm not really sure what your argument is in the above case, other than 'people aren't buying the Volt so that means we need to import more oil').
 
More speculation I see. Ever heard of something called "proof", or "facts" to back up your speculations ??
When those claiming that the Keystone XL oil will benefit the U.S. vis-a-vis oil imports provide proof or facts, then we'll be in business. Until then my speculations are as good as yours (wiser, I'd say, but I may be biased ;) ).
 
From the environmental stand point, what do we do with the 400 to 800 pounds of lithium ion batteries from every single electric car once they have exhausted their life cycle?
Two words: Re Cycle.

Now that was hard, wasn't it? :lamo
 
From an economic standpoint it would not be justified at today's prices -- unless perhaps you include the externalities (i.e., the cost of responding to global warming). But prices will come down over time.

Oh so it's a saving the planet global warming thing! I was waiting for the next excuse that would attempt to create a rosy picture of this mess.

Well thanks to those who purchased Volts for making the planet a cooler place to live. Volt prices may come down eventually, though probably as a result of further government subsidies.

Sales have been less than expected, but they are increasing every month, even with the recall. EVs are still too expensive for mass appeal. I'd certainly be happy to buy a used Volt.

Less than expected? Was it Barrack Obama who was creating these expectations?

We have politicians and car dealers making unsupported promises and people actually believe them? Have we really thought this through? Doesn't their reputations precede them?
 
Just bury them in the ground with the millions of mercury laden CFL bulbs.

No problems, right ?

Or they can both be recycled.

A LOT of R and D money is being spent on making EV batteries more environmentally friendly. Both on the manufacturing AND recycling sides of the equation.
 
May I remind you, yet again, that you chastised someone else's source as biased, yet you come up with yet another right wingnut source?

Perhaps you can use the quote where I chastised any source.

Based upon your arguments so far, I must stress that I am not saying your source is wrong simply because it is a trumpet of right wingnuttery, I'm just amazed at the hypocrisy.

It seems clear you remain confused. Charges of "hypocrisy", with no quotes being used, hardly advances whatever argument you're trying to advance.
I also wonder why your argument that contains fewer words than the link you provide to support' your argument (and I'm not really sure what your argument is in the above case, other than 'people aren't buying the Volt so that means we need to import more oil').

It seems you are not very sure of a great deal but using quotes and responding directly to them might lessen your ongoing confusion.
 
When those claiming that the Keystone XL oil will benefit the U.S. vis-a-vis oil imports provide proof or facts, then we'll be in business.

The Obama administration announced on Thursday it was delaying construction of the Keystone XL oil pipeline, a proposed Canadian project so rich in promised jobs, tax revenues, and oil imports that its approval seemed assure. But the proposal to bring crude oil from Alberta’s tar sands to refineries in Texas involved a pipeline traversing America’s heartland

What the Keystone XL pipeline would mean for the US - What is the Keystone XL pipeline and what will it carry? - CSMonitor.com

I understand that jobs, and increased energy resources are really nothing more than lip service from the great jobs killer Obama, but it is just stunning to see his followers post such ignorance.


j-mac
 
Just bury them in the ground with the millions of mercury laden CFL bulbs. No problems, right ?
One could theorize that the right projects such irresponsible behavior on others because they are guilty of it themselves?

Or is it that they are so antagonistic towards any type of progressive change in lifestyle that they simply rebel as a reflex action? Extremist rhetoric in order to defend a tungsten filament light bulb, wasteful technology that is a century old? Why?
confuse.gif
 
Two words: Re Cycle.

Now that was hard, wasn't it? :lamo

That is an ignorant answer. You think that all you need to do is put some old piece of trash on a conveyor belt called "recycle" and it come off the other side as some brand new item. There is energy and money that goes into recycling an item. When you start dealing with chemicals, and heavy items like batteries, that price goes up dramatically. Then you have to look at the actuall process of recycling the battery itself. The reason the battery is being thrown away is because the chemicals (in the case of lithium ion, its mostly cobalt and lithium) inside are only good for a certain amount of charge and drain cycles before they loose their ability to perform the chemical reaction that stores the energy. Those chemicals are now useless for batteries. no amount of "recycling" can make them work again. They are garbage. Granted you can reuse the battery container itself, but you are still gonna have to mine the lithium and the cobalt to replace the exhausted catalyst. Mining cobalt is cheap, but lithium is a fairly rare metal to find naturaly in nature because of its high reactivity. It is hard to mine and mostly found in other countries. To my knowledge there is only one mining facility in America and thats in nevada. As we become more dependant on lithium we are going to run into the exact same problems we are facing now in the procurment of oil. Dependency on outside nations.

To boil it down. You cant just "recycle" the battery, and what little you can do doesnt lessen its impact on the environment as much as you would like to think.
 
I understand that jobs, and increased energy resources are really nothing more than lip service from the great jobs killer Obama, but it is just stunning to see his followers post such ignorance.
Other than some temporary construction jobs, there are no statements of fact that any of your -- or the CS Monitor's -- lip service support will actually come to fruition. So far all we have is a PR campaign by the oil companies, which the right is swallowing hook, line, and sinker.
 
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