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Thread: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

  1. #41
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    [...] Personally I'd rather see that [1],[2] oil heading south to American refineries though the Keystone Pipeline and providing a secure source of oil, as well as [3] 20,000 American jobs. [...]
    1. There is no evidence or statement of fact that the Keystone XL oil would be processed by American refineries (there is speculation that it could be simply shipped overseas at said refinery, which is claimed to be in a free trade zone (Port Arthur, TX)). That oil from sands projects such as that in Canada is very dirty and very low quality is common knowledge in the industry -- it would be difficult to refine, more costly to refine, and result in greater pollution to refine, all compared to typical 'American' oil (light sweet Texas crude). Bottom line, the nastiest type of oil there is (more or less).

    2. Were the oil to be processed by American refineries, there is no evidence or statement of fact that the refined product would be used or sold in America (again, there is speculation that it could be shipped overseas, possibly due to quality issues mentioned above). In that scenario, America gets the pollution, the oil companies get the profits, and some other country gets the oil.

    3. The number of American jobs seems to be rather 'manipulated'. Other non-oil-industry estimates are around 5,000 construction jobs, which would of course end when pipeline construction is completed. There is evidence and statement of fact that the job estimates by those who stand to profit from construction of the pipeline that their job numbers are "job-years"; for example, if 1,000 jobs are created for 3 years, then they count that as 3,000 jobs. FYI.

    It should be noted that roughly half of the Keystone pipline project has been completed and is in use -- from Canada to Cushing, Oklahoma. One "XL" portion of the pipeline (phase 3) would simply run from Cushing OK down into Texas, and would be used to transport American oil as well. Phase 4 would be an additional pipeline from Canada to Steele City, Nebraska.

  2. #42
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    Quite honestly, i don’t care how clean or dirty it is. I think we need to do whatever we have to do to ensure the future of our way of life for our children. [...]
    Your stated attitude is clearly contrary to that. The future of our country is rooted in progressive adaptation, not rooting around in carcinogenic tar pits like the dinosaurs we are likely to mimic if we do not use our brains instead of our brawn.

  3. #43
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    [...] Even electric cars need energy and that needs to come from somewhere.
    The average electric commuter vehicle (Chevy Volt, for one example) could be completely powered by a home solar station. There is no need for anyone who drives less than 20 miles per day to ever use another drop of gasoline on the highway ever again. Right now. Today. Tell our children. . . .

  4. #44
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    1. There is no evidence or statement of fact that the Keystone XL oil would be processed by American refineries (there is speculation that it could be simply shipped overseas at said refinery, which is claimed to be in a free trade zone (Port Arthur, TX)). That oil from sands projects such as that in Canada is very dirty and very low quality is common knowledge in the industry -- it would be difficult to refine, more costly to refine, and result in greater pollution to refine, all compared to typical 'American' oil (light sweet Texas crude). Bottom line, the nastiest type of oil there is (more or less).

    2. Were the oil to be processed by American refineries, there is no evidence or statement of fact that the refined product would be used or sold in America (again, there is speculation that it could be shipped overseas, possibly due to quality issues mentioned above). In that scenario, America gets the pollution, the oil companies get the profits, and some other country gets the oil.

    3. The number of American jobs seems to be rather 'manipulated'. Other non-oil-industry estimates are around 5,000 construction jobs, which would of course end when pipeline construction is completed. There is evidence and statement of fact that the job estimates by those who stand to profit from construction of the pipeline that their job numbers are "job-years"; for example, if 1,000 jobs are created for 3 years, then they count that as 3,000 jobs. FYI.
    Your post has far more "speculation" that facts.

    It should be noted that roughly half of the Keystone pipline project has been completed and is in use -- from Canada to Cushing, Oklahoma. One "XL" portion of the pipeline (phase 3) would simply run from Cushing OK down into Texas, and would be used to transport American oil as well. Phase 4 would be an additional pipeline from Canada to Steele City, Nebraska.
    You are totally confused. Why would Obama refuse to issue a permit in November 2011 if most of it has already been built. Keystone XL has NOT been built because Obama wants to delay any controversy until after the November election. He has no balls.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Your post has far more "speculation" that facts.
    My post has more facts than any other post on this issue. Not to mention more intelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    You are totally confused. Why would Obama refuse to issue a permit in November 2011 if most of it has already been built. Keystone XL has NOT been built because Obama wants to delay any controversy until after the November election. He has no balls.
    Did I mention more intelligence?

    Here's a tip for those that like to spew without reading supporting links: The Keystone Pipeline is the segment that is already in operation, as I noted in my post (terminating in Cushing, OK). The Keystone "XL" Pipeline is (a) the extension they want to add down to Texas, and (b) the secondary (I suppose) pipeline they also want to run into Nebraska.

    Details... they're not for everyone . . . . .
    Last edited by Karl; 01-09-12 at 10:38 AM.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    I didn't see your ad hominem regarding an Op-Ed by a far right wingnut (Mark Steyn: Puncture the cocoon of denial | trillion, debt, government - Opinion - The Orange County Register)
    Speaking of ad hominem attacks, where is the evidence that Mark Steyn is "a far right wing nut"? In oder to support that claim you'd need some evidence, some fallacies contained therein, and you've offered none.

    Or perhaps you don't understand what "ad hominem" means.

    "Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."
    An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting)".

    However, logical fallacies aside, pretty much everyone that knows what "clean coal" is knows that it is an oxymoron, at least from a CO2 perspective. If you want to hang your debating hat on arguing against common knowledge, well, lotsa luck [shrug].
    "Pretty much everyone" shouldn't mean a great deal in the scientific community. As well we have to realize that some pollution is going to occur in any society. We have to minimalize it, certainly, and always look to cleaner and more efficient alternatives but ignoring accessible energy while chasing pie in the sky alternatives is a very foolish idea. There is no reason why this search for energy cannot be handled on two or more fronts.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    My post has more facts than any other post on this issue. Not to mention more intelligence


    Did I mention more intelligence?
    Mentioning does not equal existing.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    The average electric commuter vehicle (Chevy Volt, for one example) could be completely powered by a home solar station. There is no need for anyone who drives less than 20 miles per day to ever use another drop of gasoline on the highway ever again. Right now. Today. Tell our children. . . .
    If you are traveling 20 miles a day it's better to get a bicycle rather than spending $40,000 on a vehicle, and the expense of a home solar station, that will be useless in the trade-in market.

  9. #49
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Speaking of ad hominem attacks, where is the evidence that Mark Steyn is "a far right wing nut"? In oder to support that claim you'd need some evidence, some fallacies contained therein, and you've offered none.
    I mimicked your tactic as an exercise in sarcasm... so you have, in effect, just criticized yourself. Well done

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Or perhaps you don't understand what "ad hominem" means.

    "Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."
    An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting)".
    Do you not understand that is exactly what your prior post did?

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If you are traveling 20 miles a day it's better to get a bicycle rather than spending $40,000 on a vehicle, and the expense of a home solar station, that will be useless in the trade-in market.
    A bicycle is not much good if your commute requires you to travel on highways. Or, if you need to travel during the work day. Or if, for example, it rains or snows where you live. Or is really hot. Or really cold.

    And there's no reason that an EV would be useless in the trade-in market, as they can be recharged from the grid if desired.

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