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Thread: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

  1. #381
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    That was very Clintonesqe of you........... but most Dems are good at that game.
    I voted only once in my life for a democrat, Jimmy Carter. He is the only president to have an energy plan.
    All the other elections, I voted for the republican. so I guess one sin cannot be forgiven by you ubercons?
    If that is the case, you won't vote for the morally bankrupt Newt, right?
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    We just need to drill our own oil and use our own resources while moving towards renewable energy.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
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  3. #383
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    We just need to drill our own oil and use our own resources while moving towards renewable energy.
    we can do that, it won't be cheap, tho.....nearly all the easy stuff has been taken.
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Well, you either made this up or simply spoke out of ignorance:



    Yes, he and his State Department have the power to kill the pipeline. Congress CAN NOT override the decision.
    congress can introduce bills....that overrides state department...
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Thought you claimed to be an expert on nuclear issues.

    Spent fuel rods are kept in pools of circulating water to keep them cool. Even though spent, they still radiate considerable heat. If the pumps fail, water no longer circulates, the water heats up and begins to boil off exposing the fuel rods to the atmosphere.

    That's what happened at Fukishima.
    never claimed to be an expert.....show me where I did...
    I have participated in the refueling of the ATR in Idaho many times.....the volume of water used is sufficient to cool the fuel for long periods of time without external cooling.....it is part of the design....sort of like trying to boil a gallon of water with one very long candle...the losses to ambient surroundings will delay the loss of water for a very long time...
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    We just need to drill our own oil and use our own resources while moving towards renewable energy.

    This is so common sense, I am constantly surprised that more people don't just cut the noise and stick that fact.

    No one on the conservative side that I am aware of advocates that we just totally scrap any movement at all toward different energy for the future. But, this constant forceable, and false meme that creates a false crisis in order to move us toward technology that are unproven to be able to replace energy of today is IMHO, a recipe for disaster.

    In this country we have a real knack for pushing things that are unproven, and full of bugs because they sound shinny and wonderful...Consider in my industry, trucking. Diesel is not only cleaner than gasoline, but runs more efficiently, however only know of diesel as the bus they follow and their car fills with fumes from the exhaust, or see trucks on the road that bellow exhaust that they think that diesel is a dirty fuel, and as such have been ramping up the standards on the transportation industry like mine....Fist they came out with a system that regenerates the exhaust from the engine, back through a particulate filtration system that has cause problems with trucks since '08 when this was mandated, and caused one major supplier of diesel engines CAT to get out of the business of producing engines for the industry. Now the newest thing is for trucks like the one I drive to use a substance called DEF in conjunction with the particulate filtration system to further clean the air, and touts that exhaust now emitted from a truck like mine is cleaner when it exits the truck, than it is when I take it in. Problem is the cost of these systems have severely raised the cost of transportation and WILL be passed along.

    My point being is that these ideas are good, no doubt about that. But, we should not be cutting off what we are now operating on for a pipe dream of something better until we are sure it will work.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    never claimed to be an expert.....show me where I did...
    I have participated in the refueling of the ATR in Idaho many times.....the volume of water used is sufficient to cool the fuel for long periods of time without external cooling.....it is part of the design....sort of like trying to boil a gallon of water with one very long candle...the losses to ambient surroundings will delay the loss of water for a very long time...
    Obviously did not work at Fukishima.

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  8. #388
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Obviously did not work at Fukishima.
    links? I have an errand to run, so will search more later, but so far I haven't seen anything that says spent fuel was actually uncovered....
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    links? I have an errand to run, so will search more later, but so far I haven't seen anything that says spent fuel was actually uncovered....
    Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) has said there was a hydrogen explosion that damaged the Unit 4 reactor building on Tuesday morning in Japan (Monday afternoon U.S. time), reportedly blowing a 26-foot wide hole in the side of the building. If this explosion was due to hydrogen, that hydrogen very likely came from the spent fuel since there is no other clear source (this reactor was not operating when the earthquake hit). And if the spent fuel produced the hydrogen, that indicates that the water level in the spent fuel pool must have been low enough to have exposed a significant fraction of the fuel rods.

    Shortly after that—at 9:38 am Tuesday (8:38 pm EDT Monday)—TEPCO discovered a fire on the fourth floor of the building in the spent fuel pool, which reportedly burned for three hours. That fire may have been the oxidation of the zirconium cladding, as it was continuing to produce hydrogen.

    The other effect of heat damage to the fuel rods is that radioactive gases such as iodine-131 and cesium-137, which are produced in the fuel during the operation of the reactor, can be released. The hole in the secondary containment at Unit 4 means that any emissions from the spent fuel will be vented directed to the outside.

    If water cannot be added to the pool, or if the pool has been damaged and is leaking, the fuel may remain uncovered. The exposed fuel can get hot enough to melt, depending on how long it has been out of the reactor. If the fuel melts, it would release significant additional radioactivity into the air.

    This same scenario could occur at Units 5 and 6 if the water in the spent fuel pools is not replenished, although the fuel there has apparently been in the pools longer and is not as radioactive as at Unit 4. For rods that have been in the pool for long enough, their decay heat will have dropped sufficiently that they will not undergo the same rapid oxidation as newer fuel rods will, and would not produce as much hydrogen.

    Thus, depending on the age of the spent fuel in Units 5 and 6, there may be less hydrogen produced if the water level in the spent fuel pool drops. There may still be enough heat to damage the fuel and release radioactive gases, but if the secondary containment is not damaged by a hydrogen explosion, that gas may not be released to the atmosphere.

    If mechanisms to fill the pool at Unit 4 are broken, or if there is a need to repair the pool, it will be difficult to get workers close enough to do this. If spent fuel has been in the pool for a relatively short time, even if the water level is at the top of the fuel rods, the radiation dose to someone at the railing of the pool would give them a lethal dose in well under a minute. This would explain why there have been reports of requests to use helicopters to deliver water to the pools. However, it appears that this is not a practical way of delivering water.
    All Things Nuclear • Spent Fuel Pools at Fukushima

    There are dozens more stories.

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  10. #390
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    looks like unit 4 has problems with their spent fuel pool....still, you have to seperate these reports by type of source. TEPCO will be biased in their favor, journalists will just be stupid. I read one by a journalist that said spent fuel rods are "packed closely together", which is not true. There must be space between them for natural and forced cooling, plus the racks that keep them apart are lined with neutron absorbing material, ohterwise there could be fission happening. And fission requires a moderator, so when the water is gone, the moderator is gone, so no fission. The danger is melting, and that appears to be the case in unit 4. How much is still to be determined.

    what I find really stupid is that they could have piped in water from reservoirs above the pool, if they had thought to build them. There are mountains and fresh water right behind those reacotrs. One thing that never fails, so far, is gravity. Redundant flexible pipes carrying fresh water would have been a far better choice than powered pumps bringing in sea water...
    Last edited by UtahBill; 01-23-12 at 03:32 PM.
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