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Thread: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

  1. #291
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Regardless of how it gets there it appears Canada’s intention is to expand their export to Asia:

    “decision by the Obama administration underlines the importance of diversifying and expanding our markets, including the growing Asian market,”

    Canada Pledges to Sell Oil to Asia After Obama Rejects Keystone Pipeline - Bloomberg
    Other than the 5,500 or so direct, temporary construction jobs for the pipeline extension, what difference does it make where the oil goes?

    If it goes to China, do you think that will make our gas prices higher?

    If it is pipelined to the U.S. Gulf Coast, do you think that will make our gas prices lower?

    I understand the strategic considerations -- it is better to get oil from Canada rather than countries that may wish us ill will -- but give that this is very dirty oil, creates more than usual pollution in order to refine, and is a total rape of the environment to get out of the ground, wouldn't it be better if we just reduced oil consumption by 5% rather than dealing with such nasty stuff? Let the Chinese pollute and poison their citizens....

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Interesting challenge... you seem to be conceding that the oil will be refined here and then shipped overseas. Would you care to confirm that?
    Only logically. Currently the #1 US export is refined crude oil. If we increase our import of crude it only stands to reason that we will increase the export of the refined output.

    Gas, other fuels are top U.S. export

    In the meantime, if you ever come up with any proof that the oil will be consumed domestically, please feel free to post it.
    To the point above, if we are increasingly exporting refined products wouldn’t the imported CRUDE be consumed domestically as an input to the domestic refining industry?

    Kansas - three, total capacity 320,000 barrels per day (bpd).
    Indiana - two, total 425,000 bpd.
    Illinois - four, total 820,000 bpd.
    Oklahoma - six, total 505,000 bpd. See List of oil refineries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Per you link Texas – 27 total (twice the total of those you listed) 4,518,640bpd (over twice the capacity of the total of those you listed). This point is just as useless as the one you made as it is not the total count or capacity but rather the current AVAILABLE capacity. Deductively if Texas has twice the refineries with twice the capacity the probability of their ability to handle the additional crude supply would be greater.

  3. #293
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Interesting challenge... you seem to be conceding that the oil will be refined here and then shipped overseas. Would you care to confirm that?
    If you'd bother to read the thread, you would have seen that I said I don't care if refined products are used domestically or exported. We are already a leading exporter of refined petroleum and thousands of American jobs would be produced.
    In the meantime, if you ever come up with any proof that the oil will be consumed domestically, please feel free to post it.
    You're the one claiming it won't be, so I'll be waiting on your proof.

    Kansas - three, total capacity 320,000 barrels per day (bpd).
    Indiana - two, total 425,000 bpd.
    Illinois - four, total 820,000 bpd.
    Oklahoma - six, total 505,000 bpd. See List of oil refineries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Texas
    Baytown Refinery (ExxonMobil), Baytown 560,640 bbl/d (89,135 m3/d)
    Big Spring Refinery (Alon USA), Big Spring 61,000 bbl/d (9,700 m3/d)
    Beaumont Refinery (ExxonMobil), Beaumont 348,500 bbl/d (55,410 m3/d)
    Borger Refinery (ConocoPhillips/Cenovus), Borger 146,000 bbl/d (23,200 m3/d)
    Corpus Christi Complex (Flint Hills Resources), Corpus Christi 288,000 bbl/d (45,800 m3/d)
    Corpus Christi Refinery (Citgo), Corpus Christi 156,000 bbl/d (24,800 m3/d)
    Corpus Christi West Refinery (Valero), Corpus Christi 142,000 bbl/d (22,600 m3/d)
    Corpus Christi East Refinery (Valero), Corpus Christi 115,000 bbl/d (18,300 m3/d)
    Deer Park Refinery (Shell Oil Company), Deer Park 333,700 bbl/d (53,050 m3/d)
    El Paso Refinery (Western Refining), El Paso 120,000 bbl/d (19,000 m3/d)
    Houston Refinery (Lyondell), Houston 270,200 bbl/d (42,960 m3/d)
    Houston Refinery (Valero), Houston 83,000 bbl/d (13,200 m3/d)
    Independent Refinery (Stratnor), Houston 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d)
    McKee Refinery (Valero), Sunray 158,300 bbl/d (25,170 m3/d)
    Pasadena Refinery (Petrobras), Pasadena 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d)
    Port Arthur Refinery (Total), Port Arthur 174,000 bbl/d (27,700 m3/d)
    Port Arthur Refinery (Motiva Enterprises), Port Arthur 285,000 bbl/d (45,300 m3/d)
    Port Arthur Refinery (Valero), Port Arthur 325,000 bbl/d (51,700 m3/d)
    Penreco (Calumet Penreco LLC), Houston
    San Antonio Refinery (NuStar Energy), San Antonio 10,300 bbl/d (1,640 m3/d)
    Sweeny Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Sweeny 229,000 bbl/d (36,400 m3/d)
    Texas City Refinery (BP), Texas City 460,000 bbl/d (73,000 m3/d)
    Texas City Refinery (Marathon Petroleum Company), Texas City 72,000 bbl/d (11,400 m3/d)
    Texas City Refinery (Valero), Texas City 210,000 bbl/d (33,000 m3/d)
    Three Rivers Refinery (Valero), Three Rivers 90,000 bbl/d (14,000 m3/d)
    Tyler Refinery (Delek Refining Ltd.), Tyler 62,000 bbl/d (9,900 m3/d)
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    Why do you think supertankers would be required ?

    Do you require education in any other areas?
    Not from you. You remind me of a unionized public school teacher.... more concerned with BS than facts.

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  4. #294
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Other than the 5,500 or so direct, temporary construction jobs for the pipeline extension, what difference does it make where the oil goes?
    Would you agree that whatever the job count ANY increase in the US is good? If the oil goes to a refinery ANYWHERE in the US presumably this increase would sustain SOME amount if increase in domestic labor which would substantiate where it goes.

    If it goes to China, do you think that will make our gas prices higher?

    If it is pipelined to the U.S. Gulf Coast, do you think that will make our gas prices lower?
    Maybe and maybe, crude is a commodity thus an increase of it in the world market will (should) have an effect of reducing the price (notwithstanding OPEC’s price control).

    I understand the strategic considerations -- it is better to get oil from Canada rather than countries that may wish us ill will -- but give that this is very dirty oil, creates more than usual pollution in order to refine, and is a total rape of the environment to get out of the ground, wouldn't it be better if we just reduced oil consumption by 5% rather than dealing with such nasty stuff? Let the Chinese pollute and poison their citizens....
    Yes, we should reduce ALL energy consumption by the maximum % available. Sloth and gluttony are both irresponsible and non-sustaining.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Only logically. Currently the #1 US export is refined crude oil. If we increase our import of crude it only stands to reason that we will increase the export of the refined output.

    Gas, other fuels are top U.S. export

    To the point above, if we are increasingly exporting refined products wouldn’t the imported CRUDE be consumed domestically as an input to the domestic refining industry?
    Semantically, yes. But how does this help the country? I will agree that it will help the oil companies... and Lord knows they need it

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Per you link Texas – 27 total (twice the total of those you listed) 4,518,640bpd (over twice the capacity of the total of those you listed). This point is just as useless as the one you made as it is not the total count or capacity but rather the current AVAILABLE capacity. Deductively if Texas has twice the refineries with twice the capacity the probability of their ability to handle the additional crude supply would be greater.
    The point I was countering was that the midwest could not utilize the oil due to a dearth of refineries, therefore a pipeline to the Texas Gulf Coast must be built. That you now wish to move the goalposts does not change the effectiveness of my counterpoint.

  6. #296
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Semantically, yes. But how does this help the country? I will agree that it will help the oil companies... and Lord knows they need it
    Guess you forget about the people that will work for those horrible oil companies, as well as all the auxiliary employment from support companies.


    The point I was countering was that the midwest could not utilize the oil due to a dearth of refineries, therefore a pipeline to the Texas Gulf Coast must be built. That you now wish to move the goalposts does not change the effectiveness of my counterpoint.
    Size of the midwest refineries is tiny compared to ones in Texas. They can't handle the volume. You even list some in Indiana. It's closer to Houston than it is to Indiana.
    Last edited by Gill; 01-20-12 at 03:03 PM.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    The point I was countering was that the midwest could not utilize the oil due to a dearth of refineries, therefore a pipeline to the Texas Gulf Coast must be built. That you now wish to move the goalposts does not change the effectiveness of my counterpoint.
    First of all, there are more refineries in the midwest than you claimed... Check out this link of oil refineries within the United States.

    Second, the dearth of refineries is another problem. The last large refinery built in the United States was in 1976... Almost 40 years ago...

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    First you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Ask your common sense why they are piping it all the way to the Gulf Coast to be refined? Why not refine it much closer to the Canadian border? Do we not have any refineries other than on the Texas Gulf Coast?
    I understand your position to be ‘Why pipe it to Texas (unnecessarily) there should be refineries closer to Canada’, paraphrased of course.
    To which Gill replies:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    There are dozens of refineries in the Houston area, but very few in the midwest.
    Which I interpret to be ‘few closer to Canada’.
    Then you counter with:
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Kansas - three, total capacity 320,000 barrels per day (bpd).
    Indiana - two, total 425,000 bpd.
    Illinois - four, total 820,000 bpd.
    Oklahoma - six, total 505,000 bpd.
    Which I understood you to support your ‘closer to Canada’ presumption.
    And I, and Gill countered with a comparison of the capacity of those in Texas to the ones you posted. Then you espouse that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    The point I was countering was that the midwest could not utilize the oil due to a dearth of refineries, therefore a pipeline to the Texas Gulf Coast must be built. That you now wish to move the goalposts does not change the effectiveness of my counterpoint.
    HUH? Refineries closer to Canada cannot handle it and thus we MUST pipe it to Texas. It doesn’t appear that the goal post moved but rather your position.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Yep, any new jobs are good, no question. But of course they have to be weighed against the risks. Otherwise, hell, let's just build a string of nuclear reactors along the San Andreas fault? Think of all the jobs!

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yep, any new jobs are good, no question. But of course they have to be weighed against the risks. Otherwise, hell, let's just build a string of nuclear reactors along the San Andreas fault? Think of all the jobs!

    We damned well should be building more nuclear in this country.


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