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Thread: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

  1. #111
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    What is the point of a stupid question? If it is supposed to make me look stupid, then may I suggest contemplating the possibility of a self-inflicted wound?
    Because if your home is drawing electricity during the day when your say your batteries are charging that is going to decrease its charge rate. Unless this system of yours is strictly for your vehicle...

    A 5.5kW solar system, including two dozen 230 watt panels and a 6kW inverter, will set you back $12K (plus batteries). That is a moderate size solar system, which will provide peak power of 240 volts at 22 amps. This is equivalent to 120 volts at 44 amps, or a peak battery charging current of 392 amps at 14 volts DC -- sufficient to fully charge 46 of your 100 amp-hour batteries in a six hour period-
    There are a few things here i have to address... First of all your saying this system will cost 12k PLUS BATTERIES. The following is a link i found to a 100 amp solar battery.
    Intermec S07-101067 100 Amp Hour Replacement Batte Ry,replace
    Just one i found real quick using google search. There are cheaper ones, and there are more expensive ones but generally speaking with batteries, you get what you pay for.

    1 battery = $596
    46 batteries = $27416
    Not counting the cables needed to wire them together that is a total of aproximatly $39,416 plus the cost of a chevy volt which starts in the neighborhood of $31,000, thats an initial minimum investment of
    over $70,000. I dont know many people that have that kind of money to invest in a system that will do nothing more than Put a 35 mile leash around their neck.

    In fact, with that system you could charge three Chevy Volts every night (assuming six hours of sun every day in between, and assuming that you used the solar battery reserve for no other energy needs).
    Do me a favor and look at how many days last year had zero cloud coverage. Then go back to my initail comment, i never said this couldnt be dont, i said it wasnt effective. Its not time effective, and its deffinatly not fiscally effective. But if you have 70k lying around with nothing to do, go nuts.
    Last edited by Dpetty; 01-09-12 at 03:24 PM.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    [...] 2. Upkeep and maintenance issues are far greater for a public that has less, and less time, nor ability to maintain these systems. So ongoing cost is higher than traditional energy.

    3. Then there is the issue that warranted or not, recent fire hazards, coupled with the cost of these cars are still out of reach of the masses. [...]
    Those issues are, for the most part, imaginary or the result of tabloid journalism. To claim that a $40,000 car is out of the reach of the masses is somewhat laughable.

  3. #113
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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    If you put a pencil to it, you'll find that the amortization period is about 10 years (accumulated savings in electricity costs equal original cost of installation).

    Of course, at that time a new battery bank will likely be needed, but that is merely a fraction of the original installation cost. 10 years going forward, the homeowner will actually save money. Not to mention the benefits in the first 10 years of reducing fossil fuel consumption as well as reducing load on the grid and related infrastructure.
    10 years is a long time to wait for any proposed real savings vs. the immediate output of real cash up front. Considering that most people in America don't have $5K to $10K cash just sitting around.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    To claim that a $40,000 car is out of the reach of the masses is somewhat laughable.
    I consider myself to be comfortably within the middle class catagory, yet i have never owned a car even remotely close to $40,000. Any investment advisor would tell you that is a bad purchase for anybody still making house payments. 40k is not little amount of money.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    There are a few things here i have to address... [1] First of all your saying this system will cost 12k PLUS BATTERIES. [2] The following is a link i found to a 100 amp solar battery.
    Intermec S07-101067 100 Amp Hour Replacement Batte Ry,replace
    Just one i found real quick using google search. There are cheaper ones, and there are more expensive ones but generally speaking with batteries, you get what you pay for.

    1 battery = $596
    46 batteries = $27416
    1. I'm not saying it costs $12K plus batteries, the people who sell it are selling it for $12K not including batteries. So, you have correctly restated the facts of the matter. For whatever reason.

    2. Your battery is listed as some type of computer battery. 100 AH AGM deep cycle lead-acid batteries, good ones, can be bought for about $190 each if you shop around (I've bought several -- here is an offbrand (which is not what I have) -- 12v 100ah TD100-12***Tempest Deep Cycle AGM, Valve Regulated, Maintenance Free, Sealed Lead Acid Rechargeable Battery $185.00).

    For the purposes of my example, which if you recall would recharge three Chevy Volts on a good night, that would be 46 x 190 = $8,740 which would raise the total cost of the solar system to some $20K, which is about right for a system of that size and capacity (Chevy Volt charging aside, it should be able to pretty much power the average home almost completely off the grid, except perhaps for summertime air conditioning (hopefully no one envisioning an energy efficient home is using electricity for heat in the winter)).

    However, on a battery bank of this size one would probably want to go to forklift batteries (bigger, so there are fewer... plus they last 2-3 times longer). I don't have any prices handy on them, but it is somewhat irrelevant, since the purpose of the solar system is not to simply charge the Chevy Volt, but to power the home except for peak electricity use. Charging the Volt would be an ancillary benefit, assuming the solar system has sufficient capacity to do so (and the one I described would, in most case, have that additional capacity and likely more).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    Not counting the cables needed to wire them together that is a total of aproximatly $39,416 plus the cost of a chevy volt which starts in the neighborhood of $31,000, thats an initial minimum investment of over $70,000. I dont know many people that have that kind of money to invest in a system that will do nothing more than Put a 35 mile leash around their neck.
    You see, that's where the logic of your argument breaks down:
    1. You assume that people cannot afford a car. Interesting assumption.
    2. You assume the solar system is only for the car. If Americans were concerned about the future of their country and their grandchildren (as the right so piously pontificates), they would already have a solar system -- regardless of the car. But since a sizable solar system is indeed expensive ($20K in my example, perhaps a bit more for professional installation), it would be in the national interest to provide some time of low interest loan program where people could retrofit a system (since they will be paying much less for electricity, they could use some or all of that savings to pay on the loan), as well as urge installation of such systems at the time of initial construction (wherein the cost is simply rolled into the mortgage).

    So, the concept of a battery car recharged at night with a home solar installation is impractical because
    a) people can't afford to buy cars (or at least not a $40K car),
    b) the concept of spending $20K on a home remodeling project is rarely put into action, or monetarily impossible or difficult, and
    c) some days the sun doesn't shine.
    Not a sound argument IMHO. But then, I've never been one to give up easily.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    If you put a pencil to it, you'll find that the amortization period is about 10 years (accumulated savings in electricity costs equal original cost of installation).

    Of course, at that time a new battery bank will likely be needed, but that is merely a fraction of the original installation cost. 10 years going forward, the homeowner will actually save money. Not to mention the benefits in the first 10 years of reducing fossil fuel consumption as well as reducing load on the grid and related infrastructure.
    Not to throw a wrench in your claims here, but Batteries are actualy a very major investment. most deep cycle solar batteries, depending on quality, and how often you cycle the charge, are good for 4 to 8 years. As often as your talking about charging your volt, which would take a good amount of your banks juice, i would imagine your looking at the shorter end of that estimate. By your amortization schedule you wouldnt even have the system paid for before needing to replace the most expensive part of it. And the most non earth friendly part!

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    I consider myself to be comfortably within the middle class catagory, yet i have never owned a car even remotely close to $40,000. Any investment advisor would tell you that is a bad purchase for anybody still making house payments. 40k is not little amount of money.
    The purchase of a depreciating asset is more complicated than the kitchen table advice you may hear on Dave Ramsey's radio show.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    10 years is a long time to wait for any proposed real savings vs. the immediate output of real cash up front. [...]
    I was going to mention that long term thinking is usually needed to achieve significant goals, especially when confronted with entrenched thought and customs, but thought it obvious.

    Again, I erred.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Dpetty View Post
    Not to throw a wrench in your claims here, but Batteries are actualy a very major investment. most deep cycle solar batteries, depending on quality, and how often you cycle the charge, are good for 4 to 8 years. As often as your talking about charging your volt, which would take a good amount of your banks juice, i would imagine your looking at the shorter end of that estimate. [...]
    That would be a reasonable analysis if one were using typical 'truck' AGM batteries. Fork lift batteries seem to live in the 10-15 year range, but at this level of detail we are merely quibbling. Solar is not necessarily going to be any cheaper than electricity, it's simply going to eliminate a sizeable need for it to be generated at remote sites and transmitted over long distances.

    Over 10 years you may pay $24,000 in electric bills. If you instead pay $24,000 for a solar system over a period of 10 years, the net is the same -- except you have eliminated the fossil fuel consumption of the former, not to mention the associated pollution (claims that pollution from batteries would be just as bad is, quite simply, ludicrous).

    Another thing you have eliminated is the financial market's ability to manipulate and thereby profit from energy (think Enron), which is why there is so much time, money, and effort being expending to maintain the shaky status quo.

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    Re: PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    1. I'm not saying it costs $12K plus batteries, the people who sell it are selling it for $12K not including batteries.
    Juvenile... Will you send me the link to the kit your talking about?

    Your battery is listed as some type of computer battery. 100 AH AGM deep cycle lead-acid batteries, good ones, can be bought for about $190 each if you shop around
    That link is the same website with the same picture and is listed for the same uses. the difference is the one you listed states that if its used for deep cycle applications the warranty drops from 2 years, to 1 year... i wonder why that is...

    For the purposes of my example, which if you recall would recharge three Chevy Volts on a good night, that would be 46 x 190 = $8,740 which would raise the total cost of the solar system to some $20K, which is about right for a system of that size and capacity.
    Again, you spend less at the begining to buy inferior parts, you will be spending more in the long run which just strengthens my position even more.

    However, on a battery bank of this size one would probably want to go to forklift batteries (bigger, so there are fewer... plus they last 2-3 times longer). I don't have any prices handy on them, but it is somewhat irrelevant, since the purpose of the solar system is not to simply charge the Chevy Volt, but to power the home except for peak electricity use. Charging the Volt would be an ancillary benefit, assuming the solar system has sufficient capacity to do so (and the one I described would, in most case, have that additional capacity and likely more).
    Forklift batteries? I didnt have any trouble finding them online and they START at about $1,200 and go up to $9,000 EACH!
    Battery Price List - New Industrial Batteries, for forklift & solar

    Our conversation began as simply a system used for charging your Volt, you said youself during the day there would be no electricity usage. Dont start changing the boundries of our discussion.


    You assume that people cannot afford a car. Interesting assumption.
    I dont think i said that... $30,000 to $40,000 for a car is a lot of money and i personally would never pay that amount for a car capable of going 35 miles at a stretch. Whether i was charging it on the grid or off.

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