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Thread: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh yes it does...see the argument to date is that Obama was justified due republican defiance.
    Fine. In that case, yes, it was due to Republican defiance. If you knew how the Senate worked you know that. From the Senate glossary:

    hold - An informal practice by which a Senator informs his or her floor leader that he or she does not wish a particular bill or other measure to reach the floor for consideration. The Majority Leader need not follow the Senator's wishes, but is on notice that the opposing Senator may filibuster any motion to proceed to consider the measure.

    So Reid wasn't going to waste the Senate's valuable floor time when he knew the Republicans were going to filibuster anyway.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Fine. In that case, yes, it was due to Republican defiance. If you knew how the Senate worked you know that. From the Senate glossary:

    hold - An informal practice by which a Senator informs his or her floor leader that he or she does not wish a particular bill or other measure to reach the floor for consideration. The Majority Leader need not follow the Senator's wishes, but is on notice that the opposing Senator may filibuster any motion to proceed to consider the measure.

    So Reid wasn't going to waste the Senate's valuable floor time when he knew the Republicans were going to filibuster anyway.
    In this case they actually DID filibuster the nomination.

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    You can have freedom or you can have tyranny. I choose freedom. Companies that fail should fail. When the courts get involved they should follow established law. Creditors should not be tossed aside with unions elevated.
    Maybe companies that fail should fail, maybe not. But how is it tyranny to save them?

    Economically, it made sense. The money will be paid back to the taxpayers, and the company and its workers will also continue paying taxes and support families.

    I cannot help that you are blind. It is impossible for one who chooses not to see to ever see.[/QUOTE]

    Cut the pious baloney.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    In this case they actually DID filibuster the nomination.
    Hey, you're right! Which means J-mac is full of crap, again. Reid DID schedule a vote. The Republicans filibustered.

    Sorry, J-mac, try something else and see if it sticks.

    Thanks, AdamT.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Maybe companies that fail should fail, maybe not. But how is it tyranny to save them?
    Well, I might not go so far as to call it tyranny, but I would disagree that it is a good thing for the government to do.

    Why take money from taxpayers and give it to a corporation that can't make money on the market? When consumers vote with their dollars against a particular corporation, it circumvents their will to have the government take the money by force to prop up the failures.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Economically, it made sense. The money will be paid back to the taxpayers, and the company and its workers will also continue paying taxes and support families.
    I'm not sure it makes sense economically. When a corporation makes losses, it is using more value than it is producing. Such activity results in a net loss for society, and should be stopped. Losses are a signal that the business is squandering resources.

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Why take money from taxpayers and give it to a corporation that can't make money on the market?
    In rare situations, when you have a really large and important corporation that has a good chance of getting back to health and paying the money back, along with continuing to pay taxes in the future, it might be a good idea. And so far its working out. It's a win for everyone, including the taxpayers.

    I'm not sure it makes sense economically. When a corporation makes losses, it is using more value than it is producing. Such activity results in a net loss for society, and should be stopped. Losses are a signal that the business is squandering resources.
    No, sometimes losses are due to external forces like a severe economic crisis, that in the long run a corporation may survive and return to being a net gain for society and produce value again.

    The point is that it's temporary. That's what all these dolts yelling "communism" don't get. If the government were permanently subsidizing or owning GM, that would be different. GM will be private again and make a profit and pay the taxpayers back. To let it fail would waste an enormous investment.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Maybe companies that fail should fail, maybe not. But how is it tyranny to save them?
    This is a reasonable question. The government has no constitutional authority to use taxpayer dollars to fund businesses. Government involvement distorts the marketplace. And there are very great opportunities for mischief, often called crony capitalism. In this particular case the longstanding bankruptcy laws were tossed on their heads. Bondholders were stripped of their legal place in line to be paid and unions were given money to make them whole.

    Economically, it made sense. The money will be paid back to the taxpayers, and the company and its workers will also continue paying taxes and support families.
    It makes no sense economically to give taxpayer dollars to a corporation for any reason other than through purchases of their goods and services. Constitutionally it makes no sense. Why would anyone want the government to be in the position to choose winners and losers in a capitalist free market environment? Why not just surrender and accept that we have become a socialist nation with a government-run centrally controlled command economy?

    I said, "I cannot help that you are blind. It is impossible for one who chooses not to see to ever see." Then you said,

    "Cut the pious baloney."
    My statement stands.

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    In rare situations, when you have a really large and important corporation that has a good chance of getting back to health and paying the money back, along with continuing to pay taxes in the future, it might be a good idea. And so far its working out. It's a win for everyone, including the taxpayers.



    No, sometimes losses are due to external forces like a severe economic crisis, that in the long run a corporation may survive and return to being a net gain for society and produce value again.

    The point is that it's temporary. That's what all these dolts yelling "communism" don't get. If the government were permanently subsidizing or owning GM, that would be different. GM will be private again and make a profit and pay the taxpayers back. To let it fail would waste an enormous investment.
    You might not be familiar with the concept of a Constitutionally limited government. Perhaps you should become familiar so that you can see how close we are to losing it all. If the government can do this, if it can direct us to buy stuff, if it can regulate every facet of our lives, then maybe we have already lost it are are just not aware of our loss.

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    In rare situations, when you have a really large and important corporation that has a good chance of getting back to health and paying the money back, along with continuing to pay taxes in the future, it might be a good idea. And so far its working out. It's a win for everyone, including the taxpayers.
    No, sometimes losses are due to external forces like a severe economic crisis, that in the long run a corporation may survive and return to being a net gain for society and produce value again.

    The point is that it's temporary. That's what all these dolts yelling "communism" don't get. If the government were permanently subsidizing or owning GM, that would be different. GM will be private again and make a profit and pay the taxpayers back. To let it fail would waste an enormous investment.
    I see your point, but I shy away from the government doing special favors for corporations with incompetent management. I would have preferred they allowed the standard bankruptcy route to have played out: the owners lose their equity, the creditors become the new owners. The business continues under new, and hopefully more competent, ownership. The bankruptcy system avoids the government doing special favors for "special" corporations.

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    Re: Obama Defies Congress With ‘Recess’ Picks. Could Provoke Constitutional Fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    This is a reasonable question. The government has no constitutional authority to use taxpayer dollars to fund businesses.
    Okay, if that's what you're saying. But that's debatable.

    It makes no sense economically to give taxpayer dollars to a corporation for any reason other than through purchases of their goods and services.
    Sure it does. If you're saving a good company from a short-term crisis, it makes lots of sense. And the results are beginning to show.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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