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Thread: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provisions...

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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    I don't know if this has been brought up elsewhere in the thread, but the Obama administration isn't the only one who needs to be slammed - the Democrats and Republicans in the Senate and the House who wrote this legislation needs to be kicked out.
    I agree and brought this up earlier in the thread. I would also like the know the stand on this by each GOP candidates for president. Ron Paul is the only one I have heard come out and oppose it.

    Does anyone know if the GOP candidates are on record opposing the Patriot Act?
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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    How does it do that exactly? I thought the power already came from a law (the PATRIOT Act) as you stated.

    Does it do so for U.S. citizens or on U.S. soil, given the language from the bill you cited? Or are you concerned about it for everyone, not just Americans?

    These are all honest questions, not challenges.
    The power is applies to US citizens and legal residents. It solidifies and codifies the indefinite detention of US citizens as Section 1031, subsection C states:


    DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR.—The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:
    (1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.


    The AUMF states that


    the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.


    However, under the NDAA allows for the President to pursue Al Qaeda and it associated groups all over the world and since you can't 100% stamp out AQ and their buddies, you essentially have a forever war.

    EDIT: For more info on this: Look here (http://www.salon.com/2011/12/01/cong...umf/singleton/)
    Last edited by Mr. Invisible; 01-04-12 at 07:46 PM.
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  3. #103
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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    I have the right to ask questions & shall continue to ask questions, whether you approve or not.
    Never said otherwise. Just said what I said.
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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    The power is applies to US citizens and legal residents. It solidifies and codifies the indefinite detention of US citizens as Section 1031, subsection C states:


    DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR.—The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:
    (1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.


    The AUMF states that


    the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.


    However, under the NDAA allows for the President to pursue Al Qaeda and it associated groups all over the world and since you can't 100% stamp out AQ and their buddies, you essentially have a forever war.

    EDIT: For more info on this: Look here (Congress endorsing military detention, a new AUMF - Salon.com)
    I still see nothing here.

    The AUMF says nothing about detention.
    The bill language you mentioned does have indefinite detention, which we already know is being used, but contains language saying it can't be used against U.S. citizens or on U.S. soil. Not that indefinite detention isn't a concern already, but how does this change anything?
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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    I don't know if this has been brought up elsewhere in the thread, but the Obama administration isn't the only one who needs to be slammed - the Democrats and Republicans in the Senate and the House who wrote this legislation needs to be kicked out.
    Most defininately.

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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    I still see nothing here.

    The AUMF says nothing about detention.
    The bill language you mentioned does have indefinite detention, which we already know is being used, but contains language saying it can't be used against U.S. citizens or on U.S. soil. Not that indefinite detention isn't a concern already, but how does this change anything?

    Actually it can be used against US citizens as the bill states that "the requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States." However, the wording of the bill is extremely important as it states quite clearly that the military detaining US citizens is not a requirement, meaning that it isn't mandatory that you be detained. Yet that doesn't mean that the US military doesn't have the option of detaining US citizens.

    In addition to this, Section 1031 includes US citizens as it states that the indefinite detention targets people who are "a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces." However, there is no definition of "substantial support" or "associated forces" and Obama has expanded the definition of terrorism to include groups that have no connection with 9/11.
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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Actually it can be used against US citizens as the bill states that "the requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States." However, the wording of the bill is extremely important as it states quite clearly that the military detaining US citizens is not a requirement, meaning that it isn't mandatory that you be detained. Yet that doesn't mean that the US military doesn't have the option of detaining US citizens.
    Yes, someone brought that up before. THAT is disturbing. Weird and scary language.

    In addition to this, Section 1031 includes US citizens as it states that the indefinite detention targets people who are "a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces." However, there is no definition of "substantial support" or "associated forces" and Obama has expanded the definition of terrorism to include groups that have no connection with 9/11.
    Except it contains an explicit clause that says "except for U.S. citizens."
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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    This is as much info as I've found at this point on the GOP candidate's positions on the Patriot Act and torture:

    "TERRORISM:



    Bachmann: Expand Guantanamo, no Miranda or constitutional rights for foreign terrorist suspects. "I would be willing to use waterboarding," now banned, in interrogations.



    Gingrich: Supports extending and strengthening investigative powers of Patriot Act. Supports continued use of Guantanamo Bay detention for suspected terrorists. Supported creation of Homeland Security apparatus, because "we need some capacity to respond to massive events." In 2009, said of waterboarding: "It's not something we should do."



    Huntsman: Said Homeland Security Department has been heavy-handed, conveying a "fortress security mentality that is not American." Says on interrogations: "We should not torture. Waterboarding is torture."



    Paul: Opposes the surveillance and search powers of the Patriot Act. Says terrorists would not be motivated to attack America if the U.S. ended its military presence abroad. "The Patriot Act is unpatriotic because it undermines our liberty." Says: "Waterboarding is torture. And it's illegal under international law and under our law. It's also immoral. And it's also very impractical. There's no evidence that you really get reliable evidence."



    Perry: Said it was "unprincipled" for Republicans to vote for creation of the Homeland Security Department. Supports continued use of Guantanamo Bay detention for suspected terrorists and extension of Patriot Act. Would seek to privatize Transportation Security Administration and decertify its unions. Said U.S. interrogators should "use any technique that they can" short of torture, which he did not define.



    Romney: No constitutional rights for foreign terrorism suspects. In 2007, refused to rule out use of waterboarding to interrogate terrorist suspects. In 2011, his campaign says he does not consider waterboarding to be torture.



    Santorum: Defends creation of Homeland Security Department as an attempt to fix a "complete mess" in the domestic security apparatus. Voted to reauthorize Patriot Act. Says airport screeners should employ profiling; "Muslims would be someone you'd look at, absolutely." Supports continued use of Guantanamo Bay detention for suspected terrorists. Says waterboarding has proved effective."

    Homeland Security Today: Positions of GOP Candidates on Terrorism, Immigration, Other Security Issues



    From this it appears that Ron Paul and Jon Huntsman are the only two that oppose both the Patriot Act and waterboarding.
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-04-12 at 09:01 PM.
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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Yes, someone brought that up before. THAT is disturbing. Weird and scary language.



    Except it contains an explicit clause that says "except for U.S. citizens."
    Please show me that clause as I read the bill and Section 1031 does not exempt US citizens.
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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    Re: ACLU, Others Slam Obama for Signing Defense Bill That Includes Detainee Provision

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    these protest areas are for security purposes. in places like NYC, you need a balance between freedom & safety.

    sorry if folks don't like it, but we in NYC think it makes sense.
    Here's hoping that are completely ignored this time around.

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