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Thread: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    So you're claiming that some hospitals will refuse to treat an emergency case, and some hospitals may treat the person but consciously not provide adequate care.
    No, I'm saying people ONLY get emergency care, not care for chronic issues that degrade the quality of life but aren't emergencies. And waiting until something is an emergency sucks - it's bad for the patient, and expensive for the rest of us.

    Well that's true, and my argument has been and will continue to be the more government is involved and adds layers of bureaucracy into it, and with good intentions (I assume that btw) try to make the system better they apparently (As we see with Obama Care) make it worse and not just a little worse, a LOT worse. To the point where if nothing is done, health care will literally bury the entire country in 30-40 years.
    But isn't that what you want - nothing to be done by government? Repeal Obamacare, and Medicare/Medicaid too, and let the private sector do it all?

    It's one thing to say Obamacare won't work. I might agree. It's another thing to say there's no way the government can help, or should help.
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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    No, I'm saying people ONLY get emergency care, not care for chronic issues that degrade the quality of life but aren't emergencies. And waiting until something is an emergency sucks - it's bad for the patient, and expensive for the rest of us.
    You don't seem to understand... what you consider emergency isn't what they consider emergency. People go into the emergency ward for colds, small splinters, every day little maladies as well as, for maintenance on chronic conditions.



    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    But isn't that what you want - nothing to be done by government?
    I want government out of the health care business yes. However, government can turn health insurance back into insurance by passing a law.... that would be nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Repeal Obamacare, and Medicare/Medicaid too, and let the private sector do it all?
    Certainly repeal Obama Care, as it increases costs and fails at it's primary function: To lower costs. Eventually repeal Medicare yes... Medicaid at some level will still be needed, but the government doesn't have to run it. That can be done by the private sector.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    It's one thing to say Obamacare won't work.
    I don't know if it will work or not, it's not in place yet. I do know the mandate is in my opinion, unconstitutional, and I do know that most economists, health professionals and the CBO know it will raise costs. What kills me about Obamacare is that the obvious things which would improve health care in this country isn't in it. Obamacare was a partisan disaster written by Pelosi and Reid which even the President didn't want - but politically he can't back away from it now - especially in an election year.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    I might agree. It's another thing to say there's no way the government can help, or should help.
    Certainly the government can help but they forgot that "less is more". They need to help less in quantity and help more in quality - but quantity is where the money is for their states and constituents. There's no money in quality.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You don't seem to understand... what you consider emergency isn't what they consider emergency. People go into the emergency ward for colds, small splinters, every day little maladies as well as, for maintenance on chronic conditions.
    But they only get emergency treatment of those things. They don't get complete, consistent care.

    I want government out of the health care business yes. However, government can turn health insurance back into insurance by passing a law.... that would be nice. Certainly repeal Obama Care, as it increases costs and fails at it's primary function: To lower costs. Eventually repeal Medicare yes... Medicaid at some level will still be needed, but the government doesn't have to run it. That can be done by the private sector.
    Yeah yeah yeah. Private sector is perfect, government is terrible. We've heard it before.

    Seriously, dude, how much do you think you'd have to pay for private insurance as an unemployed, high-risk guy - i.e. a retiree? Medicare exists for a reason.

    As for the rest of your comments, I agree that Obamacare wasn't the best outcome.
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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    But they only get emergency treatment of those things. They don't get complete, consistent care.
    It depends on what you consider "complete" but certainly consistent.... they just keep going back to the ER whenever they need something. That's VERY consistent.



    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Yeah yeah yeah. Private sector is perfect, government is terrible. We've heard it before.
    In no way is the private sector perfect, but it's a helluva lot better than a controlling bureaucracy. See, with the private sector there are multiiple ideas, multiple policies, multiple suggestions from different types of organizations, businesses, towns and cities.... instead of one way and one policy which is the state or the federal government who wields the power.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Seriously, dude, how much do you think you'd have to pay for private insurance as an unemployed, high-risk guy - i.e. a retiree? Medicare exists for a reason.
    Have I been non-serious in this conversation? And if you'd bother to read, the quotation you are answering, I stated "Medicaid at some level will still be needed." Are you obtuse on purpose or do you just not comprehend what I'm writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    As for the rest of your comments, I agree that Obamacare wasn't the best outcome.
    Without blatantly saying so, I knew it from the beginning and do you know why? It's because such a governmental control is contrary to what historically is known to work. Yet we have a President and a Democratic party for 16 months who tried to convince the American people that by adding 30-40 million more people into the system under a mandate, that costs would go down and they trotted out economists and all sorts of people to try and convince us of that obvious lie. THAT was an insult to anyone and everyone in this country and that it actually got signed into law shows how ultimately dangerous such a move by ANY political group or party is. THIS is why I advocate for the private sector - NOT because it's "perfect" because that's an idiotic notion. It's because the private sector is diverse, is multi-faceted and will ultimately agree on the best solution unlike a bureaucracy which advocates NOT for the people they are supposedly representing, but for their ideology and for their political careers.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    But they only get emergency treatment of those things. They don't get complete, consistent care.


    but they do get the most expensive care available.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It depends on what you consider "complete" but certainly consistent.... they just keep going back to the ER whenever they need something. That's VERY consistent.
    But you don't know that every uninsured patient always goes to only the ER either. Some go to free or cheap clinics. Some stay home and just don't get treatment, until its an emergency.

    In no way is the private sector perfect, but it's a helluva lot better than a controlling bureaucracy. See, with the private sector there are multiiple ideas, multiple policies, multiple suggestions from different types of organizations, businesses, towns and cities.... instead of one way and one policy which is the state or the federal government who wields the power.
    No there isn't. There's plenty of ideas and policies and suggestions in government too.

    Have I been non-serious in this conversation? And if you'd bother to read, the quotation you are answering, I stated "Medicaid at some level will still be needed." Are you obtuse on purpose or do you just not comprehend what I'm writing?
    No, just wondering why you think you can bash government and then support it in the same breath. Make up your mind.

    It's because the private sector is diverse, is multi-faceted and will ultimately agree on the best solution
    If that were true, we wouldn't have needed a health care law in the first place.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    but they do get the most expensive care available.
    Yep - high cost, low results - awesome system.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Yep - high cost, low results - awesome system.
    It's the American way, at least when it comes to health care.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    But you don't know that every uninsured patient always goes to only the ER either. Some go to free or cheap clinics. Some stay home and just don't get treatment, until its an emergency.
    I have a family member (well nearly family) who works the ER and has for the past 6 months, and I made sure to check with her before weighing in on this subject. Now that's one hospital in one state but I can tell you that this hospital is suburban (small town) and not urban. Newark, Camden, Philly, New Brunswick, Trenton... much much more prevalent than the hospital where she works. The nursing staff is on a first name basis with many who come in for primary care and maintenance care claiming an emergency.... through the emergency room which treats them and releases them, with no insurance. If that happens... why go to a clinic or go further away or somewhere different unless the hospital refuses to treat you? If they keep doing it, keep going... and that's what they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    No there isn't. There's plenty of ideas and policies and suggestions in government too.
    Sure, but they follow one policy --- at the fed it's the policy of the President. Yet if I go to the states, there's 50 policies one for each state... and within the state there are yet more policies for each Mayor. If I take this to the private sector, I get hundreds or thousands of different policies and when changing healthcare on a grand scale, I want as many diverse policies from different groups as possible. Obamacare is an abortion because it was conceived by one policy - the DNC policy - Republicans were kept out remember? Even if Republicans were allowed in, I still don't want it - oligarchic federal policy as an insurance provider---- it's disaster waiting to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    No, just wondering why you think you can bash government and then support it in the same breath. Make up your mind.
    Because reasonable people do not see all government as all evil all the time --- just like government isn't roses and icecream, angels and wonderful all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    If that were true, we wouldn't have needed a health care law in the first place.
    Again... purposely obtuse or ... ? Healthcare insurance isn't insurance - it's a payment plan used for everything and anything. Stop using it as a payment plan... government CAN pass a law that removes and restructures healthcare. The fed should approach it in this way: Instead of the government passing laws telling the bureaucracy how it will require and involve itself in healthcare, it should outline how costs and fees should work. Government goes to the insurance companies and says, "Ok boys, come up with a fair way to decrease the cost of healthcare coverage. Here's the guidelines." And then the insurance companies and the government hammer out how it could work. Once that's done government comes back to the insurance company's and says "Good job, now you run it with Government oversight. Integrate it into your current structure and you can't pass this cost off to the consumers. You have to make it work without raising costs, deferring costs... "

    Government can't do their OWN jobs ... why do you think they can be a healthcare provider? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I have a family member (well nearly family) who works the ER and has for the past 6 months, and I made sure to check with her before weighing in on this subject. Now that's one hospital in one state but I can tell you that this hospital is suburban (small town) and not urban. Newark, Camden, Philly, New Brunswick, Trenton... much much more prevalent than the hospital where she works. The nursing staff is on a first name basis with many who come in for primary care and maintenance care claiming an emergency.... through the emergency room which treats them and releases them, with no insurance. If that happens... why go to a clinic or go further away or somewhere different unless the hospital refuses to treat you? If they keep doing it, keep going... and that's what they do.
    Okay, that would be interesting, but not a complete study.

    Sure, but they follow one policy --- at the fed it's the policy of the President.
    False. There are plenty of different ideas and policies in government, even at the federal level.

    Again... purposely obtuse or ... ?
    Claiming that the private sector is perfect is obtuse.

    Government can't do their OWN jobs ...
    Government does a good job sometimes and a crappy job sometimes. The private sector does a good job sometimes and a crappy job sometimes.

    why do you think they can be a healthcare provider? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.
    Poll: Americans are more satisfied with Medicare than private healthcare insurance

    Poll: Americans are more satisfied with Medicare than private healthcare insurance | SwampBubbles - News, Politics, Reports
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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