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Thread: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Your plan does not address the affordability problem.
    It's not intended to. Please reread my previous post.

    We'll see how far you get with taking away seniors health care affordability.
    They don't HAVE affordability. If you drive a $20 million car for which you paid $5000 and taxpayers paid the rest, is that an affordable car?

    It's Medicare as an entire program that is inherently unaffordable.

    You do realize that seniors made up the only big demographic in the last presidential election don't you? How are planning to get the seniors to agree with your plan to cut their benefits?
    They won't. But that changes nothing about the fact that Medicare needs to be dissolved.

    Do a little research. We didn't have debt problem relative to GDP until the Reagan Administration in 1981. 2011 minus 1981 is 30 years by my calculations.
    Therefore your simple calculation leads to the arbitrary assertion that it'll take 30 more years to address our debt. You call that research?

    Our debt is simply too big for spending cuts alone to be the answer.
    More and more people have been saying lately that there is no tax and cut answer to our debt anymore. They will manage our decline by destroying the dollar to wipe out the debt. This will be painful.

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Do you have anything more reliable than a partisan hack site?
    The quotes were from Bush himself.
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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Bush is right. And to say that the SS fund has been "looted" or "spent" is highly inaccurate.

    There's no separate SS fund, there's just the Treasury. Cash comes in, cash goes out. To spend cash now that comes in now is not to "raid" the surplus in one account. The SS money is not simply spent, it is "borrowed" from the other accounts by issuing internal bonds held by the government. In other words, the SS surplus is not spent, it is invested in U.S. bonds.

    If the government were to save the cash it gets from SS payroll taxes, it would simply have to borrow that much more cash from the private sector to pay its bills. Instead, it borrows from itself.

    This is not to say it's wise financially. One way or the other, retirees are going to want SS benefits in the future, and the government will need to come up with the cash then. But it's not the same thing as just spending the cash, never to be seen again.
    During his campaign, he said we had 2.6 trillion dollar surplus, which he intended to protect. At the conclusion of this term, he said it was all gone, it had been spent. Borrowing from the SS surplus for general fund use is indeed allowed, and along with it comes the requirement to pay it back.
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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Any politician that tells you that there is a surplus in any program is lying to you.
    I'm not going by the politicians, I'm going by the accounting records of the SS funds.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I'm not going by the politicians, I'm going by the accounting records of the SS funds.
    Then they were lying to you. The entry might have been there but the money wasn't. That isn't trying to excuse reckless spending but it's just noting that the money wasn't there.

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    It's not intended to. Please reread my previous post.
    I have no interest in a plan that does not address affordability.



    They don't HAVE affordability. If you drive a $20 million car for which you paid $5000 and taxpayers paid the rest, is that an affordable car?

    It's Medicare as an entire program that is inherently unaffordable.
    Once again you are wrong, Medicare is run at less overhead than private insurance. It is the underlying problem of health care cost that is the problem. Your plan does nothing to address the problem.



    They won't. But that changes nothing about the fact that Medicare needs to be dissolved.
    Ain't happening as long as we live in a Democracy.


    Therefore your simple calculation leads to the arbitrary assertion that it'll take 30 more years to address our debt. You call that research?
    You are welcome to provide evidence to refute it if you wish.



    More and more people have been saying lately that there is no tax and cut answer to our debt anymore. They will manage our decline by destroying the dollar to wipe out the debt. This will be painful.
    You are wrong again, I am afraid. The majority of Americans have clearly expressed through 19 different polls this year that they support increasing taxes on the wealthy to help reduce the deficit. As far as your inflation issue, we are at historic lows.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Then they were lying to you. The entry might have been there but the money wasn't. That isn't trying to excuse reckless spending but it's just noting that the money wasn't there.
    See the accounting report FD linked above.

    And here is a little history for you about how the SS surpluses came about:

    "Before the confetti from Ronald Reagan's 100th birthday is entirely swept away, we might pause to remember one of his signature achievements -- back when Democrats and Republicans actually spoke to each other.

    It was in some ways a less entertaining time, but some things actually got done.

    One of them, in 1982, was a bipartisan overhaul of the finances of Social Security. A commission headed by Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, D-N.Y., and Alan Greenspan, later the Oracle of the Federal Reserve, reduced some benefits and considerably increased Social Security taxes. Reagan and Democratic House Speaker Tip O'Neill signed off on the deal.

    As a result, for 30 years, Social Security piled up considerable surpluses -- surpluses that were supposed to be there for the system when the Baby Boomers started to retire and begin decades of looking for their old Beatles records. Since by law Social Security can invest its surplus only in Treasury notes, it now holds $2.6 trillion in U.S. bonds -- leaving it in position to make full payments until 2037.‡

    Hardly any other entity in the world, public or private, can call itself a multitrillionaire. That's why John Burbank, executive director of the Economic Opportunity Institute in Seattle, calls Social Security "the best-funded program in the federal government."

    Still, in the midst of our current budget crisis, Social Security has just gotten thrown in with its bankrupt bureaucratic brothers. Last weekend on CNN, former Wyoming Sen. Alan Simpson, co-chairman of President Barack Obama's budget commission, explained that his critics were "jerks" and declared, "So I'm waiting for the politician to get up and say, there's only one way to do this, you dig into the big four: Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and defense."

    But as the television show that featured the original Oscar the Grouch used to explain, one of these things is not like the other.

    One of these things has the moral and legal commitment of the U.S. government for $2.6 trillion.

    There is a suggestion out there that because the $2.6 trillion is not piled up in gold bars somewhere, but is only a file of U.S. government IOUs, that it doesn't actually exist. Since the Social Security shortfall, like the Medicare shortfall, actually has to come out of the general fund, critics claim the situations are the same, and urge that Social Security's retirement ages should be jacked up until the books balance.

    But if all those T-notes in the Social Security trust fund are just pieces of paper, we'd better keep that news from the other people holding them.

    "If we pay off China for its purchase of Treasury bonds," notes Burbank, "we should pay off the American people for their purchase of Treasury bonds."

    The Social Security surpluses were used to help pay off years of federal deficits. When the prospect of federal surpluses first appeared, Bill Clinton urged, in his 1998 State of the Union speech, that the money be used to "save Social Security first." Running for president in 2000, Al Gore wanted the Social Security surpluses put in a "lockbox," an idea that struck people as so hilarious it became a punchline.

    Instead, hundreds of billions of dollars of Social Security taxes -- a flat tax that the government stops collecting above certain incomes -- were used to help balance three major George W. Bush tax cuts. As Harry J. Holzer, public policy professor at Georgetown University, put it seven years ago, "Thus the Social Security surplus -- financed by payroll tax increases on the lower and middle classes -- has been used to fund income tax cuts that overwhelmingly benefit high-income people."

    Time to live up to Reagan's Social Security deal | OregonLive.com
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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    I'm not attempting to make a partisan point. I was clear to note that if "any" politician tells you that there is a fund, they are lying to you.

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I'm not attempting to make a partisan point. I was clear to note that if "any" politician tells you that there is a fund, they are lying to you.

    Again, as indicated previously, my source is not a politician.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: With Reservations, Obama Signs Act to Allow Detention of Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Again, as indicated previously, my source is not a politician.
    If ANYONE tells you that there is a fund, they are lying to you.

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