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Thread: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Oh, I actually misread you. I thought you were saying abortion isn't right (as in morality)

    That too.

    I missed the "a" before right.
    No problem.

    In any case, rights are determined by men too.
    No, they are not. IMHO, so called 'rights' determined by men can be taken away. So in that case those would be privileges, not rights.

    Uh...no, but okay.
    Well, yes. Which is why liberals argue and love to grant supreme authority to the court to pass law through fiat, by unelected judges. If you want something to be codified as a right, pass an amendment.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    How can the government "protect our god given liberty" without doing it "by force of law"?
    It can't, of course, which is why we need laws.

    The point is that the purpose of government is to make and enforce laws that protect our liberty, not ones that protect us from ourselves or that try to impose someone else's morality on the rest of us.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It can't, of course, which is why we need laws.

    The point is that the purpose of government is to make and enforce laws that protect our liberty, not ones that protect us from ourselves or that try to impose someone else's morality on the rest of us.
    You just switched from "values" to "morality". You previously said that you "don't seek to impose my values on the rest of society by force of law", and you also said that liberty was one of your values. Therefore, you don't want to impose liberty by force of law. That would be fine for an anarchist, but you also said "The purpose of government is to protect our god given liberty.". This can't be done without the force of law, which you already admitted.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    You just switched from "values" to "morality". You previously said that you "don't seek to impose my values on the rest of society by force of law", and you also said that liberty was one of your values. Therefore, you don't want to impose liberty by force of law. That would be fine for an anarchist, but you also said "The purpose of government is to protect our god given liberty.". This can't be done without the force of law, which you already admitted.
    is there a point somewhere in all of that?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    is there a point somewhere in all of that?
    If you consider liberty to be a value, and if you want the government to protect our liberty, then you want to impose at least one of your values by force of law. This is what separates libertarians from anarchists.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    You just switched from "values" to "morality". You previously said that you "don't seek to impose my values on the rest of society by force of law", and you also said that liberty was one of your values. Therefore, you don't want to impose liberty by force of law. That would be fine for an anarchist, but you also said "The purpose of government is to protect our god given liberty.". This can't be done without the force of law, which you already admitted.
    Liberty is not forcing anyone to do anything. It's allowing people to do as they choose.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    If you consider liberty to be a value, and if you want the government to protect our liberty, then you want to impose at least one of your values by force of law. This is what separates libertarians from anarchists.
    Oh, I see. Well, you do have a point. If your value is anarchism, then having any government is contrary to your values.
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    lib·er·ty
       /ˈlɪbərti/ Show Spelled[lib-er-tee] Show IPA
    noun, plural -ties.
    1.
    freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
    2.
    freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.
    3.
    freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.
    4.
    freedom from captivity, confinement, or physical restraint: The prisoner soon regained his liberty.
    5.
    permission granted to a sailor, especially in the navy, to go ashore.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    If you want ANYTHING to be illegal, you're imposing your values on the rest of society. This is necessary if you want the government to protect your life and liberty. Anarchists believe that everything should be legal, and it's up to individuals/families/friends to protect their own liberty, rather than the government doing it.

    There isn't anything about abortion laws that makes them unique. Some people might think that stealing food is OK if the person is starving, but it's illegal because the majority disagrees. Democracy is all about the majority imposing its will on the minority. Libertarians believe that this is rarely OK, and should only be done to protect life and liberty. Anarchists believe that it's never OK for the majority to impose its will on the minority.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    If you want ANYTHING to be illegal, you're imposing your values on the rest of society. This is necessary if you want the government to protect your life and liberty. Anarchists believe that everything should be legal, and it's up to individuals/families/friends to protect their own liberty, rather than the government doing it.

    There isn't anything about abortion laws that makes them unique. Some people might think that stealing food is OK if the person is starving, but it's illegal because the majority disagrees. Democracy is all about the majority imposing its will on the minority. Libertarians believe that this is rarely OK, and should only be done to protect life and liberty. Anarchists believe that it's never OK for the majority to impose its will on the minority.
    Which is why anarchy is not liberty.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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