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Thread: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You seem to have mistaken freedom for choice. We are against unlimited personal choice. Personally I see what people do with their choices before I praise them for having choice.
    The right to decide for yourself is the definition of freedom. Without it, there is no freedom, only dictates from others.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The right to decide for yourself is the definition of freedom. Without it, there is no freedom, only dictates from others.
    Freedom involves choice, but that doesn't mean freedom is only choice.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Your example of "crushing the head while the body is mostly delivered" is partial birth abortion and that's illegal. Also, I don't support partial birth abortion. However, you're right about the potassium chloride thing and I didn't know that that's what you meant by "burning". My mistake. Moreover, I am pro-choice, I support improving abortion procedures to eliminate any potential pain that an unborn child might feel. Even so, the amount of pain a fetus can actually feel is still a pretty contested subject.


    Yeah, I think a woman's right to choose is more important than a unborn child's right to live. Would I prefer that women not get abortions, particularly so late? Sure I do. But I think women should have the choice. And as I mentioned earlier, I think women should also have the choice to induce birth rather than have an abortion so that viable children have a chance. However, it's my understanding that, currently, women can only make that choice for medical reasons not personal ones which is a problem.


    You're not protecting the mother's rights by telling her what to do and I don't believe in telling women what to do with regards to abortion. Your argument is simply a pro-life argument that's telling me that my reasons for being pro-choice aren't good enough for you. But the thing is, I don't care if they are.
    Good reply.
    The difference is they want to force, most even to use the power of government, to force others to do what they believe. You aren't trying to force them or anyone to do anything.
    They are not "pro-life." They are pro-control over others. All pregnancies carry a risk of death to the mother - some more than others but all do. So it isn't pro-life. Minimally, they should only be called "anti-abortion" and not "pro-life."

    However, you are not "pro-abortion" because you don't want to force anyone to have one. So you are "pro-choice." They are "anti-abortion."
    Last edited by joko104; 01-01-12 at 10:41 PM.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Freedom involves choice, but that doesn't mean freedom is only choice.
    Without choice there is no freedom. Choice is an inherent element of freedom.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Without choice there is no freedom. Choice is an inherent element of freedom.
    I just said that. But as I also said freedom and choice are not the same thing. Choice can destroy freedom sometimes, for instance an alcoholic choice damages his freedom. It depends on how one defines freedom, though.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Good reply.
    The difference is they want to force, most even to use the power of government, to force others to do what they believe. You aren't trying to force them or anyone to do anything.
    They are not "pro-life." They are pro-control over others. All pregnancies carry a risk of death to the mother - some more than others but all do. So it isn't pro-life. Minimally, they should only be called "anti-abortion" and not "pro-life."

    However, you are not "pro-abortion" because you don't want to force anyone to have one. So you are "pro-choice." They are "anti-abortion."
    I think that if there's going to be any meaningful discussion, out of respect for the opposing side(s), the terms used should be "pro-choice" and "pro-life."

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    I think that if there's going to be any meaningful discussion, out of respect for the opposing side(s), the terms used should be "pro-choice" and "pro-life."
    In some way or another the soft-hearted and tender souled indiviudals will get their feewing hurt. . . 'pro-choice' can be considered an insult if they're really pro-life but take a different view on how "life" should be protected.

    And so on - it's semantics dickery and it doesn't matter in the end.
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    In some way or another the soft-hearted and tender souled indiviudals will get their feewing hurt. . . 'pro-choice' can be considered an insult if they're really pro-life but take a different view on how "life" should be protected.

    And so on - it's semantics dickery and it doesn't matter in the end.
    It actually does matter if you want to have an actual discussion. One of the most basic principles of social interaction is respect and if you don't respect someone in conversation, then they aren't going to hear what you're saying. So I suppose if someone is just interested pontificating, then labels don't matter, but then I have no idea why they would be here since this isn't "Pontificate Board". I mean, if someone calls me "pro-abortion", then that tells me that they have absolutely no intention of respecting my opinion. That has nothing to do with feelings and everything to do with assessing who is and isn't serious about discussion.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    It actually does matter if you want to have an actual discussion. One of the most basic principles of social interaction is respect and if you don't respect someone in conversation, then they aren't going to hear what you're saying. So I suppose if someone is just interested pontificating, then labels don't matter, but then I have no idea why they would be here since this isn't "Pontificate Board". I mean, if someone calls me "pro-abortion", then that tells me that they have absolutely no intention of respecting my opinion. That has nothing to do with feelings and everything to do with assessing who is and isn't serious about discussion.
    I have no problem with people using the term that THEY feel comfortable with. . . the people who get hung up on terms and will attack *the terms* (especially if the terms are socially accepted terms like pro-life, pro-choice) then that is just intentional derailment and serves no purpose.

    As long as I can discern who is being discussed and what they're talking about I'm fine with anything - I use to use the term slug just to prove the point that people can get TOO hung up on the words themselves and ignore the noted context just to be stingy and difficult.
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I have no problem with people using the term that THEY feel comfortable with. . . the people who get hung up on terms and will attack *the terms* (especially if the terms are socially accepted terms like pro-life, pro-choice) then that is just intentional derailment and serves no purpose.

    As long as I can discern who is being discussed and what they're talking about I'm fine with anything - I use to use the term slug just to prove the point that people can get TOO hung up on the words themselves and ignore the noted context just to be stingy and difficult.
    Really. So how people address you doesn't give you any insight into their perspective or their willingness to have respectful discussion?

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