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Thread: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

  1. #121
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    From the article:

    "These two individuals are now where they belong and should be in jail for the rest of their lives," the Rev. Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life, said in a statement. "Even those who believe abortion should be legal can join with us to stop the out-of-control practices of people like Brigham and Riley."
    I do agree - eventhough I support limited abortion - but at some point (23 weeks seemes even too late for my liking) you HAVE chosen to have the baby.
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    It actually does. A fetus is, in fact, attached to the woman's body.

    And no, you said, "and once the baby is born, unless it is immediately given up for adoption, the mother's wishes and wants have to take second place to those of the baby. Anyone who has ever cared for a newborn knows that."

    I agree with that statement and have never argued differently. And I'm talking about unborn children NOT newborns. So again - nothing to do with my arguments.
    Attached to a woman's body is not the same thing as being a part of a woman's body.

    The question of when human life begins is not an easy one. No one knows, really. Some say it begins at conception, and that, therefore, a zygote is of the same status as a baby who is already born. Some say life begins at birth.

    Neither position can be proven.

    Personally, I think it is somewhere in between those two events, but then, I can't prove my opinion any more than you can.
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  3. #123
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I said it. That's the pro-choice position. You've just stated that pro-life position. Nothing has changed.
    Not entirely accurate. The "pro-life" position is that they get to tell others what to do. They are the anti-personal freedom people. The pro-choice position is that other people should butt out of other people's lives as a matter of individual freedom.

    Pro-lifers are control freaks upon personal ideology they want imposed on everyone. Pro-choicers are personal liberty people.

  4. #124
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Attached to a woman's body is not the same thing as being a part of a woman's body.

    The question of when human life begins is not an easy one. No one knows, really. Some say it begins at conception, and that, therefore, a zygote is of the same status as a baby who is already born. Some say life begins at birth.

    Neither position can be proven.

    Personally, I think it is somewhere in between those two events, but then, I can't prove my opinion any more than you can.
    Actually life can generally be said to start at conception, because that is when a new being begins. It doesn't really make sense for it to begin any other time. The argument is generally over personhood or when that life form is a person.
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Not entirely accurate. The "pro-life" position is that they get to tell others what to do. They are the anti-personal freedom people. The pro-choice position is that other people should butt out of other people's lives as a matter of individual freedom.

    Pro-lifers are control freaks upon personal ideology they want imposed on everyone. Pro-choicers are personal liberty people.
    You seem to have mistaken freedom for choice. We are against unlimited personal choice. Personally I see what people do with their choices before I praise them for having choice.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  6. #126
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    The article is about 3rd trimester abortions - some as late as 36 weeks. Those are viable babies - meaning, they could have been killed inside the womb, partially outside, or fully outside the woman's body. There is no "commonly accepted" practice this late in the term. One method essentially entails crushing the head for easier removal (while the body is mostly already delivered). Another, is to inject potassium chloride (one of 3 drugs administered in death penalty cases - the other 2 are given first because just giving potassium chloride by itself is deemed too painfully inhumane). Although, here's a detailed case involving someone who conducted at least hundreds of procedures basically slitting the throats of the child after birth.
    Your example of "crushing the head while the body is mostly delivered" is partial birth abortion and that's illegal. Also, I don't support partial birth abortion. However, you're right about the potassium chloride thing and I didn't know that that's what you meant by "burning". My mistake. Moreover, I am pro-choice, I support improving abortion procedures to eliminate any potential pain that an unborn child might feel. Even so, the amount of pain a fetus can actually feel is still a pretty contested subject.

    Yes, you've argued that circumstances in the article only bothered you in relation to the mother's health. At 36 weeks a normal baby can live without the mother, so you believe that a baby, delivered early, can be ethically/morally killed. You're no longer arguing regarding fetus does not equal life. You're arguing that life can be extinguished because the bab's life is somehow owned by the mother. Meaning, a few weeks before it's "due" to almost a year after it's born, it should be able to be killed by the mother. If this is not true, then please distinguish the difference between a premature living baby removed from the womb and a 3 month old after birth. Reaching in and killing it so it comes out dead as opposed to pulling it out and killing it are the same thing.
    Yeah, I think a woman's right to choose is more important than a unborn child's right to live. Would I prefer that women not get abortions, particularly so late? Sure I do. But I think women should have the choice. And as I mentioned earlier, I think women should also have the choice to induce birth rather than have an abortion so that viable children have a chance. However, it's my understanding that, currently, women can only make that choice for medical reasons not personal ones which is a problem.

    I've never argued that if health concerns are on the table then choices may have to be made. But, nothing in the posted story leads us to believe there were any health concerns. Barring new information, the "other" options you reference don't exist. Kill the baby or don't kill the baby. It's likely that the health problems and injuries sustained by the mother were caused by attempting to kill the child while partially delivered. They could have protected the child's rights and the mother's both by delivering it alive instead of dead.
    You're not protecting the mother's rights by telling her what to do and I don't believe in telling women what to do with regards to abortion. Your argument is simply a pro-life argument that's telling me that my reasons for being pro-choice aren't good enough for you. But the thing is, I don't care if they are.

  7. #127
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Attached to a woman's body is not the same thing as being a part of a woman's body.
    Semantics. I think you understood what I meant within the context of the topic.

    The question of when human life begins is not an easy one. No one knows, really. Some say it begins at conception, and that, therefore, a zygote is of the same status as a baby who is already born. Some say life begins at birth.

    Neither position can be proven.

    Personally, I think it is somewhere in between those two events, but then, I can't prove my opinion any more than you can.
    Exactly, which is why I don't support telling women what to do based on someone else's subjective opinions.

  8. #128
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Actually life can generally be said to start at conception, because that is when a new being begins. It doesn't really make sense for it to begin any other time. The argument is generally over personhood or when that life form is a person.
    and you can't prove your opinion any more than I can prove mine, or someone else can prove that life begins at birth.

    which is why the issue of abortion will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction.
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    So, according to your school of thought, someone who has "made it" has more rights than one who hasn't. For instance, a professor has more rights than a student. He made it already, the student is just potential. A manager has more rights than a manager in training. The manager made it, the other guy is just potential. A middle class man has more rights than a poor man. The middle class man made it, the poor man is just potential. What a, excuse my abruptness, stupid way to think.
    Nope, but you're free to try again.

    I still don't agree with it, but, I can see where pro-choice people get their view on early term abortions. The argument there is when is life conceived and how we don't even know if the fetus is going to make it. However, with late term, I have no idea how anyone could endorse that. It is barbaric. These babies could actually live outside the womb at 21 weeks. It is very rare and would be a huge long shot I know, but, its possible. Anyone that can endorse late term abortion needs their head checked. Maybe they should go see one performed and see how they like it then.
    I don't "endorse" abortion. Also, I've seen abortion videos and there are also plenty of women who have had late term abortions who are fully pro-choice.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    and you can't prove your opinion any more than I can prove mine, or someone else can prove that life begins at birth.

    which is why the issue of abortion will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction.
    Well proof means different things, but I think you can logically and in accordance with common sense show a life begins at conception, in the sense that that is the only time, reasonably, that a new, individual human being is formed. At no other time does another human being emerge, rather than traits. The real debate is over personhood, or when this being is a proper human person.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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