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Thread: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

  1. #111
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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Yes and those distinctions have nothing to do with magic and being fully human.
    But you're making them. So explain why.

    I'm pro-choice. I'm not saying it's easy. But if you challenge others, you should be able to do it yourself.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Both fetuses and after-birth have marketable value and are used for various reasons including making very costly drugs by the medical industry. That would be the likely reason.
    I wondered if maybe they were selling them. And I have no doubt that the "medical industry" would gladly buy them.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    I doubt it is illegal to sell either within the medical industry.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I've posted my opinion many times. Here's the short version. An independent life does not exist until capable of surviving independently. I do not believe "a person" exists until taking first breath. If society wants to prohibit abortion after the fetus can exist independent of the mother that is acceptable to me. If so, then it could be made illegal. But doing so would not be murdering a person/baby unless done after a live-birth.
    Ok. Then we're in basic agreement that law could be made even though we might disagree on the logic that gets us there and the severity of the punishment for breaking the law.

    I still think your logic is somewhat faulty in that a 3 month old is NOT capable of surviving independently. In fact, it needs essentially the same care as a healthy child delivered 4 weeks early. This article was specifically about "persons" who had the ability to breath on their own (36 weeks). But, they would need a care-giver to provide warmth, food, to clear out it's sinuses, and to protect it from predators - just like a 3 month old. So, you're saying that what distinguishes your beliefs is that it's ok to kill it so long as you reach in and do it as opposed to pulling it out and then killing it? Is that really your distinction? What if it were 2 weeks over due - still ok I guess, correct? Why the distinction - because what happens in mom stays in mom?
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Abstinence. Not e.v.e.r. going to happen.
    That's news to me. I'm a young man and since I have become a committed Christian I have been abstinent. It is not a perfect solution, but that doesn't mean a general, social respect for the principles of chastity cannot have some positive effects in this area.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Ok. Then we're in basic agreement that law could be made even though we might disagree on the logic that gets us there and the severity of the punishment for breaking the law.

    I still think your logic is somewhat faulty in that a 3 month old is NOT capable of surviving independently. In fact, it needs essentially the same care as a healthy child delivered 4 weeks early. This article was specifically about "persons" who had the ability to breath on their own (36 weeks). But, they would need a care-giver to provide warmth, food, to clear out it's sinuses, and to protect it from predators - just like a 3 month old. So, you're saying that what distinguishes your beliefs is that it's ok to kill it so long as you reach in and do it as opposed to pulling it out and then killing it? Is that really your distinction? What if it were 2 weeks over due - still ok I guess, correct? Why the distinction - because what happens in mom stays in mom?
    My view is none so simplistic and I tend to intensely disagree with all absolutes at the extremes. For example, I do think it would be "murder" to kill a child after a live-birth - but even exceptions to that, although extraordinary ones. In history, rape to force women of another race or people has been used as a genetic weapon. If on a large scale, and only if the individual woman of each child agreed, I could see that killing babies might fall within the rules of war as those babies specifically were the weapon of attacking the other culture on a mass scale. However, that would be in extreme situation and in one in which the race of the child had huge social and political impact within both cultures, so it is more a theory statement of past cultures than actual application potential today.

    Gray areas not definable in absolutes give some people problems. They don't for me. What I wrote is what I believe is the absolute further society could possibly go intruding into women's lives and control of her body.

    To give it real meaning on another level, if in late term a woman wanted to abort, I could "tolerate" it if a majority had a law that said she had to an induced labor or C-Section to try to live-birth the fetus. Since you claim the fetus is viable at that stage you should have no problem with that. Most states allow a woman to abandon a child at birth if she wishes and pro-lifers generally do support birth-mothers and their husbands throwing away unwanted newborns.

    So I guess your view is that if in the first couple weeks the rule was doctors had to try extract the zygote/fetus to try to keep it alive you're ok with that manner of abortion in that it wasn't being deliberately killed. Or did you not really mean what you wrote?
    Last edited by joko104; 01-01-12 at 09:26 PM.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    That's news to me. I'm a young man and since I have become a committed Christian I have been abstinent. It is not a perfect solution, but that doesn't mean a general, social respect for the principles of chastity cannot have some positive effects in this area.
    Congrats. SRYL. Stick to your values about yourself. That's a good thing to do.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    But you're making them. So explain why.

    I'm pro-choice. I'm not saying it's easy. But if you challenge others, you should be able to do it yourself.
    I've explained my answers already to other posters. If you want the answers they are there. However, I will not be responding to someone who accused me of making arguments that I did not make. I've been down that road too many times.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It actually doesn't. A fetus is not a part of a woman's body.
    and it has everything to do with what you've been saying.
    It actually does. A fetus is, in fact, attached to the woman's body.

    And no, you said, "and once the baby is born, unless it is immediately given up for adoption, the mother's wishes and wants have to take second place to those of the baby. Anyone who has ever cared for a newborn knows that."

    I agree with that statement and have never argued differently. And I'm talking about unborn children NOT newborns. So again - nothing to do with my arguments.

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    Re: 2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Who said that the woman's right to control her body trumps the child's right to live? It is a fact of nature that a fetus needs to grow within a living woman's womb. That this restricts the choice of the mother and her complete control over her body is tough luck; we all have our choices restricted by external circumstances. This doesn't mean the child must die to restore some dubious notion of the woman's total control over her body.
    I said it. That's the pro-choice position. You've just stated that pro-life position. Nothing has changed.

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