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Thread: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    tell that to me and my regiment when we backed you up in Iraq...
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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL yea .. like the sanctions it has had against Cuba and Iran for the last few decades have matter at all. And like it or not, it is not the rhetoric coming from the right.. it is war talk.
    you mean that 50 year embargo of cuba has not resulted in regime change [/s]

    what is amazing, for both cuba and iran, is that the people still like/admire American culture ... despite the hardships imposed upon them by the embargoes
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you mean that 50 year embargo of cuba has not resulted in regime change [/s]

    what is amazing, for both cuba and iran, is that the people still like/admire American culture ... despite the hardships imposed upon them by the embargoes
    What hardships? Cuba's hardships is not because of the American embargo, but because of their policies. The rest of the world trades with Cuba. Cuba could and can via Spain or other friendly countries, trade in whatever they want. Problem is their local policies prevent a lot of that trade for political reasons.. it easier to sell the "victim" card to the people with the big bad US embargoing them.. just blame the US embargo for the fact they dont have Nissans and what not running around.. that way the revolution will continue because the hardships are not the fault of the government. If the US was serious about getting rid of Castro.. dump all embargoes and sanctions.. life might just get so good for Cubans that they will kick out the Castros... but of course there is no political will for that.

    Iran is pretty much the same.. sure they cant get American made products directly, but come on.. you looked around at how many "American products" that are out there? Not that many and it is not like those American companies who have to not trade with Iran, dont do it any ways through 3rd and 4th parties. Else how come they have iPhones, computers (with Intel and AMD chips) and so on Iran? So what if they missed out on Pepsi, Coca Cola or McDonalds.. But again as long as the US has its embargoes and what not, the Iranian regime can blame the problems in the country on the US, aka the great Satan. Add to that, that the US removed the only effective stopgap in Saddam, then the Iranian regime is loving the situation right now.. they can piss of the US who knows it cant do jack ****, all in the while spreading its own form of religious bullcrap across the world via terror and worse.

    An embargo that is not global, means absolutely NOTHING. The embargo against Saddam, as holed as it was, had a far far far greater impact since it was the world community doing it.. but when the US does it unilaterally.. it means nothing. It is the same with certain countries embargoing Israel.. dont matter squat as long as the rest of the planet still trades with them.

    As for the two societies admiring the US.. so what. Most societies admire other societies in one way or another. Even I admire parts of the US.. it means very little other than to stroke some nationalistic ego of some.
    Last edited by PeteEU; 12-31-11 at 06:16 PM.
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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    He wouldn't save the banks or pump the economy with money or even help people save their homes.
    No responsible leader would willfully allow the economy to disintegrate into another Great Depression. Anyone with reasonable knowledge of the Great Depression knows that there was true misery and hardship. Deliberately imposing people to severe and unnecessary hardship simply to test a personal macroeconomic theory is irresponsible.

    If that truly was his design, he failed the test of leadership in the worst possible way. If not, he still failed by offering no alternative solutions to the one he opposed. Doing nothing was not a viable option.

    ...and yes the constitution does stop those activities regardless of what the SC says.
    The reality is that the Supreme Court is the arbiter of disputes over what is and what is not constitutional. Each of us may have opinions, but it is the Supreme Court that decides and it is the Supreme Court's opinions that have the weight of law until or unless they are either reversed or an amendment modifying/repealing them is adopted.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So, my question here. If Iran tries to block the Straight, 1. is that an act of war? and 2. Would the US be justified in taking out Iran's navy, and possibly further action in Iran?


    j-mac
    The question of whether the US is "justified" is irrelevant for all practical purposes because the US govt has a long-standing reputation of ignoring international laws whenever obeying them is detrimental to the interests of the its owners.

    So the relevant issue is whether

    1) Iran can actually block the Strait

    2) Iran has a means of effectively countering any subsequent US naval retaliation to the point where it can win, i. e. force the US govt into a checkmate in N moves scenario.

    If both 1 and 2 are true, then the US govt will be forced to cancel its sanctions. Other, the govt won't.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    The question of whether the US is "justified" is irrelevant for all practical purposes because the US govt has a long-standing reputation of ignoring international laws whenever obeying them is detrimental to the interests of the its owners.

    So the relevant issue is whether

    1) Iran can actually block the Strait

    2) Iran has a means of effectively countering any subsequent US naval retaliation to the point where it can win, i. e. force the US govt into a checkmate in N moves scenario.

    If both 1 and 2 are true, then the US govt will be forced to cancel its sanctions. Other, the govt won't.
    Leaving aside the first bit, in answer to your questions:

    1) Without intervention, yes they can block the straits.

    2) Depends on how they block the straits. If they attempt a naval/shore blockade, no. The US could trivially break such a blockade. If they pull off something like sinking ships in the deepest part to physically block the channel(not sure if it would work in Hormuz, but maybe), they could temporarily block it, but would hurt themselves as much or more by doing so.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Debate Politics Forums - Awards

    We give out nice medals for those with military service. Be sure to request yours at the link.
    I would but there is no British Army medal

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I would but there is no British Army medal
    Well..maybe we can work out something for nonUS military. I will get back to you on it.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you mean that 50 year embargo of cuba has not resulted in regime change [/s]

    what is amazing, for both cuba and iran, is that the people still like/admire American culture ... despite the hardships imposed upon them by the embargoes
    Speaking of the Cuban embargo, here is an in-depth study that examines why the Cuba has not democratized despite its going through so many changes that should have arguably led to democracy. The study is by Darren Hawkins and was published in Comparative Politics, Vol. 33, No. 4. (Jul., 2001).

    Link to study: Democratization Theory and Nontransitions: Insights from Cuba
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Pete, try and understand this. The US is planning sanctions against Iran instead of military strikes. The US will stop any effort of Iran to close the straits, which is hardly going to war. And some of us liberals agree that Iran cannot be allowed to close the straits.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL yea .. like the sanctions it has had against Cuba and Iran for the last few decades have matter at all. And like it or not, it is not the rhetoric coming from the right.. it is war talk.
    Sanctions are having an effect per this recent article from MSNBC.com today though I do worry about the anxiety building up from both sides.

    Chalmers said sanctions were most effective in influencing behavior when they were imminent and credible but not yet in place as, once in place, they were hard to lift, short of a comprehensive conflict resolution.

    "The Iranians know this, and are seriously worried by the prospect of an EU oil embargo, especially as it could be followed by action by the U.S.'s close Asian allies," he said.

    "They could then be left at the mercy of China and India, who are likely to demand big price discounts in order to shift purchases from Arab countries, who will not be happy, to Iran."

    The rising tensions are having an impact at home. Iran's currency has nosedived in recent weeks as ordinary Iranians have moved money from savings accounts into gold or foreign currency.

    The price of staple foods has increased by up to 40 percent in recent months and many critics have put the blame on increasing isolation brought about by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's economic and foreign policies.

    Iran's massive media coverage of the naval maneuvers appeared an attempt by the authorities to strike a patriotic chord among ordinary Iranians worried about a military strike.

    "I have already witnessed a war with Iraq in the 1980s ... I can hear the drumbeat of war," said merchant Mohsen Sanaie, 62, glancing over newspaper headlines at a central Tehran newsstand. "One stray bullet could spark a war."
    As this portion of the article clearly indicates, Iran's being back into an economic and energy reserve corner with very little wiggle room. If you recall world and U.S. history, this is pretty much what happened between the U.S. and Japan leading up to the attack on Pearl Harbor only in reverse. Back then, we squeezed Japan and basically kept them from getting access to any foreign oil reserves. Now with Iran, sactions will make it much more difficult for them to sell oil on the international market. And seeing that oil is their last remaining commodity...

    Unless Iran backs down, gives up their nuclear (weapons) ambitions and returns to the negotiating table...well, let's not even think about it.

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