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Thread: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

  1. #101
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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So, my question here. If Iran tries to block the Straight, 1. is that an act of war? and 2. Would the US be justified in taking out Iran's navy, and possibly further action in Iran?


    j-mac
    Years of putting sanctions on Iran only make their people suffer and causing their military to naturally lash out because they are backed into a corner because of constant threats of war by the U.S. a country thousands of miles away from their own waters and territory. So simply put if the U.S. did not threaten Iran's military, economy, and civillans of Iran (please refer to the unnecessary deaths of Iraqi civillans by the hundreds of thousands during the unjust iraq war), there would be no Strait of Hormuz standoff. The vast majority of American citizens don't want a war with a nation halfway around the world, as even the most simple minded citizen realizes after the iraq debacle war is not worth it. U.S. troops should be brought back home and taken away from unnecessary danger, and focus on the U.S. economy and controlling our southern borders seems more prudent. War mongering is inmoral and unjust.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I believe it far more likely to be shown to be an act of stupidity. It would greenlight our taking out every offensive weapon Iran has that would even remotely threaten the sea. That would include every ship in its Navy, and anythng else we put in crosshairs. It would also remove all political barriers to wiping out their nuke program. Iran would be suing for peace in a matter of days, and Imanutjob would be toppled. We'd never have to put a soldier on the ground.

    Never never never make that mistake. You should never under estimate your enemy nor be so certain of victory that you believe its simply a matter of saying "Go." Military planners have been making that mistake for centuries from the Revolutionary War when invading Canada was just "a matter of walking," to the US Civil War, to WW1, to Vietnam, then Kosovo/Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan. I still can't believe there are people who believe that wars are simple matters that offer quick fixes to any problem.

    Wars are NEVER simple, they are NEVER easy, and the enemy NEVER just lays down and dies for you.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    j-mac, et al,

    I would suggest you to look at "foreign policy" and "international leadership" in a much different way; remembering that America's view is not always the "right view." America acts in it own best interest, that is to say the interest of the powerful and ruling elite of America. Without regard to what American Political personalities might say in the open forum for public consideration, their is always a hidden agenda. It may or may not have the same goals and objectives as the other nations of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    If we are to regain our momentum as the nation that sets the standard, then we must remain vigilant, and continue this role. That doesn't mean we can't bill those who would take advantage of that truism.
    (COMMENT)

    While it is true that the US must strive to set an example (preferably a positive example), that is not the same as setting a standard.

    Have you ever been approached by Mormon missionaries, or stopped in an airport by Hare Krishnas? Neither are doing any harm, yet we tend to be quite annoyed by them --- none the less.

    The US is often viewed as an Evangelistic Nation selling (pushing) democracy. But we only want the development of democracies of which we approve. If a people have open elections and choose a path of leadership that is anti-American, we instantly oppose it. Imagine Our surprise when the Palestinians chose Hamas? While it was a democratic process, one that by our own teachings we should respect, we none the less sanctioned it. Many nations of the world are annoyed with two aspects of America:

    • America is always right and it is always our leadership that must prevail.
    • America is above international law; because America has a higher calling to lead the world.


    Now we preach and teach the concepts of the "Rule of Law;" but we set ourselves above them (we've discussed two conventions in just this thread most recently). In Iraq, I was most amused by the fact that the Embassy had a considerable staff dedicated to preaching and teaching the "Rule of Law." I saw a similar function being performed in Kabul. I got the biggest chuckle out of Senator Kerry standing on stage supporting Afghan President Hamid Karzai election. Everyone knew that he was one of the most corrupt officials anyone had seen in Afghanistan in more than a decade. But, it suited the purposes of the US. It did not go unnoticed by the Afghan People. We sort of validate corruption in government. It was not so dissimilar in Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunday 4 December 2011 The Guardian.
    The head of an internationally backed corruption watchdog in Afghanistan has warned that members will resign in protest if the government of President Hamid Karzai does not start prosecuting senior officials.

    Quote Originally Posted by September 11, 2011|By Raheem Salman, Los Angeles Times
    Reporting from Baghdad Prime Minister Nouri Maliki on Saturday accepted the resignation of Iraq's top corruption fighter, whom some observers labeled a casualty of political infighting in a country where graft is rampant.

    While Americans are not generally watching, those of us who have stayed the course, having been to the garden spots like Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen, know that we have not made the best of calls --- have not made decisions in the best interest of the people in these countries. It goes without saying that many of the allies that we bought in support of these campaigns have noticed as well.

    Do they want the US enforcing the "standards?" Probably not.

    Do you think the Arabs in the Middle East have a firm respect for the US relative to the "Rule of Law?" There is a country that the US directly support, militarily, economically and politically which is in violation of the statues in force by The Hague Court in the Netherlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICC Part II, Article 8 - War Crimes - Para 2b
    (viii) The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

    This is much more than "Customary Law" --- but again, inconvenient for the US. Thus we ignore it, unless we need it as in the case of Saddam Hussein.

    No, it is not time for America to "set the standard."

    (QUESTION)

    Should America pull back a bit?

    There is this talk of a "power vacuum" that would be created if America releases the reigns. And there is a fear that the vacuum will be filled by another power that will not be sympathetic to the needs of America, and less likely to accept the blanket claim that America is not subject to International Laws to which it doesn't agree. But the argument is weak. If America is as powerful and relevant as it claims, then it should not matter what nation takes the lead. But it is not a foregone conclusion that any country will take the reigns. It is a very costly endeavor. The DoD FY 2012 is estimated to be $640B. What country wants to make that kind of commitment?

    Back when I was in Vietnam, they had these guys called the "Whiz Kids." They were suppose to be the brightest and the best America had to offer in the arena of Foreign Affairs and Defense Policy. They believed in the Domino Effect if the US lost in Vietnam. In the end, we gave it away. But the Dominoes never fell. When I went to Iraq, we had the PNAC. They believed in the terrorist behind every tree and they spread the big WMD scare. I remember the Ambassador telling us (2004) what Iraq would be like in five years. Their would be stability, Sunnis and Shi'ites living side-by-side. Out front of the Embassy, their would be stores and shops where diplomats could eat, drink and be merry with a friendly population. There would be a staff of 600 and children going to the school they built. When I left in July 2010, it was nothing of the sort. It still isn't today. The school, at the time, was converted to a CAA Embassy Annex.

    The US has not been very successful at predicting the outcomes of its military intervention. And as we still drive the eight miles to BIAP under armor and Kevlar, we see the outcome is not what we envisioned. And again, as we look to Afghanistan and a decade of combat operations, what do we see.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN June 15, 2004
    President Bush on Tuesday claimed victory in the war on terrorism in Afghanistan and announced what he called five new initiatives to strengthen the links between that country and the United States.

    Bush praised the visiting head of Afghanistan's interim government, Hamid Karzai, as a man of "honor, courage and skill helping to build a new and democratic Afghanistan."

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    If we are to regain our momentum as the nation that sets the standard, then we must remain vigilant, and continue this role.
    (COMMENT)

    It is a very easy mantra to fall behind. It sound so patriotic - so tough - so American. Yet it is a very dangerous and slippery slope to embark upon in a timewhen America see danger in every direction. Now is a time to be cautious.

    We need to back-up and take a look at what were doing, why we are doing it and how we got here. If we are going to claim that we are "right," then we better be "right."

    Most Respectfully,
    R

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by 24107 View Post
    Years of putting sanctions on Iran only make their people suffer and causing their military to naturally lash out because they are backed into a corner because of constant threats of war by the U.S. a country thousands of miles away from their own waters and territory. So simply put if the U.S. did not threaten Iran's military, economy, and civillans of Iran (please refer to the unnecessary deaths of Iraqi civillans by the hundreds of thousands during the unjust iraq war), there would be no Strait of Hormuz standoff. The vast majority of American citizens don't want a war with a nation halfway around the world, as even the most simple minded citizen realizes after the iraq debacle war is not worth it. U.S. troops should be brought back home and taken away from unnecessary danger, and focus on the U.S. economy and controlling our southern borders seems more prudent. War mongering is inmoral and unjust.
    Iran is just a victim. Right?

    It's not like they have killed our people and taken them hostage, or anything like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Not necessarily the Pitbull's battle alone, but it's easier to fight the battle when your supposed "allies" aren't always getting in the way rather than doing anything truly useful. Then again I'm not sure the US is really a Pitbull anymore. I doubt our current administration has the intestinal fortitude to fight a war all-out. Obviously the last one did not, nor have any since the end of WWII.
    On the contrary if you look at the first Gulf war under 50% of the forces involved where American, the others being mainly from the other Arab states, which shows that other states will get involved if it is in there interests to do so. The fact George Bush I dragged the Israelis kicking and screaming to Oslo is one example of how important it was for the U.S to keep this coalition together. The states bordering the Strait of Hormuz are all rich and well armed and will come down on Iran like a ton of bricks if it actually does attempt to blockade them fully and i think Iran's leadership knows that this would be the nuclear option. The important thing is for neither side to do anything stupid and in the words of JFK to conduct themselves like porcupines making love (carefully)

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Iran is just a victim. Right?

    It's not like they have killed our people and taken them hostage, or anything like that.
    The Iranian government is certainly not a victim, its quite clear it wants to become a regional power and part of that is undermining US influences in the region. They've been active even when they weren't directly threatened, for example support certain insurgent groups in Iraq or Afghanistan. However lets be clear, the Iranian people for the most part don't have a dog in this fight, they are more concerned with domestic problems than foreign ones and yes some of them have suffered due to sanctions, its a necessarily cost but it doesn't mean their sacrifice doesn't exist.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    The U.S. doesn't have rights to the Strait, so I don't see how it would be a direct declaration of war against the U.S. to block it. Obviously it would affect our oil economy, but in terms of legal provisions, the Strait is not ours so all of this entitlement to attack Iran about it is uncalled for. If the U.S. attacks Iran over the Strait then we would be violating international law. Despite what the warhawks would have us believe, we can't just go to war with any country we want. Mind you, the UN law has been flouted many times in recent years by several of the big powers, so it might not matter, especially if the U.S. forms a coalition again.

    I have to agree though that during a recession and an election year, another major war would be extremely unpopular - but it could happen anyway, since oil industry is our biggest sacred cow. Anything that obstructs it would suffer the rath of the Republocrats. Not to mention, the POTUS has the unilateral power to deploy the military now, so it would actually be up to King Obama and not so much our Congress, unless the GOP makes a push for it to happen.

    The only loose canon here is Israel, and their government has been looking for any excuse to bomb the **** out of Iran for several years now. The tensions are climbing. It wouldn't be so severe if Iran weren't already surrounded by nations that have been infiltrated by our military. They are likely to be more nervous, and more nervous means they will take measures to procure their security.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Iran is just a victim. Right?

    It's not like they have killed our people and taken them hostage, or anything like that.
    Nor is it the case that the entire nation was taken hostage in 1953

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    That's awesome, Awesome! When do you ship over?
    Until we are energy independent from that part of the world, we need to protect what is ours. If Iran wants to give us this gift of aggression for us to justify hitting them, then we take advantage of it because the last thing we need is a nuclear threat from Iran in that region. Who knows, maybe the Iranian people will rise up against the joke of their leadership and the entire region will become more stable. I can understand the emotion about sending more Americans to die but what other options do we have until we can start fracking and drilling closer to shore here?
    Caitlyn Strong...

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Never never never make that mistake. You should never under estimate your enemy nor be so certain of victory that you believe its simply a matter of saying "Go." Military planners have been making that mistake for centuries from the Revolutionary War when invading Canada was just "a matter of walking," to the US Civil War, to WW1, to Vietnam, then Kosovo/Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan. I still can't believe there are people who believe that wars are simple matters that offer quick fixes to any problem.

    Wars are NEVER simple, they are NEVER easy, and the enemy NEVER just lays down and dies for you.
    Spare me the drama, and poor history. This is not like invading Canada 230+ years ago. This would be far more like as taking out Iraq's offensive capabilities in all of about 12 hours just 8 years ago. Our goal is not to invade or occupy Iran. Were it to block the Straits, it would be effectively neutered within a few days.

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