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Thread: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    That's awesome, Awesome! When do you ship over?
    You realize that is an entirely illogical argument? In my case, I have been through the straits multiple times, and done my time. That is also irrelevant. People are entirely able to have opinions on foreign policy without having to put themselves at risk. Here is a thought: instead of trying to discredit the person who's opinion you disagree with, why not try and discredit the opinion. It's much more effective.
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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    j-mac, et al,

    I know that many, many people would agree with you on this. But, there are other issues, concepts and principles involved. I may not totally agree with Ron Paul's logic; but it does give pause for concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Good GAWD! This guy is dangerous.
    (THE ARGUMENT - THUMBNAIL - GOES LIKE THIS)

    The US needs to rank it's "vital interests" with the "vital interests" of all the key players. This constant use, by political midget minds, of the phrase "US vital Interests" and "National Security" as an excuse for unilateral authority to enter into military conflicts is becoming overworked.

    There are about 15-20 VLCC Oil Tankers that transit the Straits of Hormuz daily. Only a faction of them are US Flagged. But none of the Persian Gulf Terminals are US. They belong to some of the riches nations in the world. Filthy rich! (Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Oman!!!) And every one of them (with the exception of Iraq) can afford to fund their own protective defense force.

    Iran has a GNP of about $187B. Kuwait $59B, Saudi Arabia $289B, Bahrain $10B, Qatar $15B, United Arab Emirates $112B and Oman $23B; not counting Iraq with $16B. For most of them, oil is their only significant export. The Straits are much more critical a passage to them, than to the US. Without the Straits, they are shut-down.

    Why is it the US that has to defend the Straits? Well the answer is, the US does not. The US does so because it wants to be Regionally Relevant and exercise hegemonic like influence. The Persian Gulf/Arabian Sea Neighbors to Iran cannot afford to let Iran block the straits any more than Iran itself can afford to box-in its own exports.

    Yes, I've heard all the arguments that the 5th Fleet is the only force in the region that can challenge Iran. But each time we play the role of "World Police" - we get our reputation massacred and get virtually no return on our investment. And, we further convince the Regional Government that they need not invest in their own critical defense soft points.

    At a time when unemployment is at an all time high, and when the budget is stretched to its limit, when American credit has been internationally down graded, when multinational and transnational corporations (like Exxon $370B, Royal Dutch Shell $368B, BP $297B, Sinopec $289B, etc, most having a annual revenue greater than the Persian Gulf States) are exporting jobs like crazy, do we need to spend money maintaining the 5th US Fleet to protect Persian Gulf Interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Author unknown
    “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”—

    Defend the Persian Gulf Region today, and you'll have to do it again tomorrow; even as they condemn you for it. Make them defend themselves, and you'll save yourself the problems associated with infidels interfering.

    At some point, you would think we would have learned that we cannot trust these people; and nor can we afford to defend them.

    If the Regional Governments of (Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Oman!!!) And if they don't have a problem with Iran, and are concerned enough to contain Iran, then why should the US?

    (COMMENT)

    There is some merit to the argument. And, there are some ironies.

    The US did not ratify the UNC Law of the Seas convention when it was introduced nearly 30 years ago. Nor has the US ratified the International Criminal Code (Rome Statues) introduced a decade ago. Yet we tend to exercise military force under the flag of "customary law." Other nations see this as recognizing the conventions as - "when it is convenient for America." They have learned that America will selectively enforce conventions as the "World Police." But are not subject to them. We circumvent UN decrees - when they don't act the way we want (Coalition of the Un-willing), and use them when we take action.

    But no matter what the argument - it will not stop the US from taking a military confrontational position. The US needs, it is an essential need, to be militarily relevant in the region.

    People like Ron Paul see a different way. Let's not be too hard on them.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
    Last edited by RoccoR; 12-30-11 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Are you a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff? You have no clue about what any plan is.
    Yes, I am.










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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by RoccoR View Post
    The US needs to rank it's "vital interests" with the "vital interests" of all the key players. This constant use, by political midget minds, of the phrase "US vital Interests" and "National Security" as an excuse for unilateral authority to enter into military conflicts is becoming overworked.

    There are about 15-20 VLCC Oil Tankers that transit the Straits of Hormuz daily. Only a faction of them are US Flagged. But none of the Persian Gulf Terminals are US. They belong to some of the riches nations in the world. Filthy rich! (Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Oman!!!) And every one of them (with the exception of Iraq) can afford to fund their own protective defense force. ..........................



    Defend the Persian Gulf Region today, and you'll have to do it again tomorrow; even as they condemn you for it. Make them defend themselves, and you'll save yourself the problems associated with infidels interfering.

    At some point, you would think we would have learned that we cannot trust these people; and nor can we afford to defend them.

    If the Regional Governments of (Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Oman!!!) And if they don't have a problem with Iran, and are concerned enough to contain Iran, then why should the US?

    (COMMENT)

    There is some merit to the argument. And, there are some ironies.

    The US did not ratify the UNC Law of the Seas convention when it was introduced nearly 30 years ago. Nor has the US ratified the International Criminal Code (Rome Statues) introduced a decade ago. Yet we tend to exercise military force under the flag of "customary law." Other nations see this as recognizing the conventions as - "when it is convenient for America." They have learned that America will selectively enforce conventions as the "World Police." But are not subject to them. We circumvent UN decrees - when they don't act the way we want (Coalition of the Un-willing), and use them when we take action.

    But no matter what the argument - it will not stop the US from taking a military confrontational position. The US needs, it is an essential need, to be militarily relevant in the region.

    People like Ron Paul see a different way. Let's not be too hard on them.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
    Clapping smiley.gifClapping smiley.gifClapping smiley.gifClapping smiley.gifClapping smiley.gifClapping smiley.gif
    Excellent post

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    I listen to all the cheerleaders for war mouthing their inane platitudes. Review history. Iran has never attacked anyone. Who has Iran terrorized? Are they a threat. "The threat to close the straits" is an easy to remember slogan to demonize and is being used on non thinking sheep to keep them in their corral. Brain dead. Can't think for themselves. Throw some bombs at somebody, and do it quick. Always works! Well, except for Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, and you know, places like that. Some of you pretend to be sane, but it is hard to even suggest that warmongers are sane, don't you think? This is likely Iran posturing to take advantage of the USA overflights on sovereign Iranian terrority and those are acts of war, but Iran just says they won't give us our toy back. Yeh, big threat. 60 million people we took a crap on in the past, and Gee, golly sakes, they haven't forgotten. Who'd a thunk it?

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You realize that is an entirely illogical argument? In my case, I have been through the straits multiple times, and done my time. That is also irrelevant. People are entirely able to have opinions on foreign policy without having to put themselves at risk. Here is a thought: instead of trying to discredit the person who's opinion you disagree with, why not try and discredit the opinion. It's much more effective.
    Fair question. It should be, though it isn't, the People who decide through their elected officials whether we go to war as a nation or not. Un****ingfortunately the War Powers Act circumvented the Constitution. Military service is sacrifice as we both know. Civilians have no ****ing clue. YOu know that too. It is soooooo damned easy to sit back and advocate the death and destruction of other nations. Tell me darlin' there's no difference in putting your butt on the line and sending others to do it for you. You know better than that.

    Americans for the most part have NO ****ING CLUE what it is to serve or to go to war and as such they have no problem sending Americans to die. No sweat. No personal sacrifice. Maybe we should make America sacrifice where it hurts. Maybe we should establish a mission for war and criteria for success and maybe we should assess every American household their firstborn of legal age or $10,000 against accomplishing the mission. How many Americans do you think would be up for it? Seriously. We are a soft assed nation of pussies. You know it and I know as every veteran does.

    I would add that it is a different argument for my brothers and sisters who have served. We may not agree regarding everything, but we are indeed different from most of the nation. I may not agree with you or with J-Mac, but I do know and acknowledge that we have a common bond and I will forever respect that.
    Last edited by Risky Thicket; 12-30-11 at 09:12 PM.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  7. #97
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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Fair question. It should be, though it isn't, the People who decide through their elected officials whether we go to war as a nation or not. Un****ingfortunately the War Powers Act circumvented the Constitution. Military service is sacrifice as we both know. Civilians have no ****ing clue. YOu know that too. It is soooooo damned easy to sit back and advocate the death and destruction of other nations. Tell me darlin' there's no difference in putting your butt on the line and sending others to do it for you. You know better than that.

    Americans for the most part have NO ****ING CLUE what it is to serve or to go to war and as such they have no problem sending Americans to die. No sweat. No personal sacrifice. Maybe we should make America sacrifice where it hurts. Maybe we should establish a mission for war and criteria for success and maybe we should assess every American household their firstborn of legal age or $10,000 against accomplishing the mission. How many Americans do you think would be up for it? Seriously. We are a soft assed nation of pussies. You know it and I know as every veteran does.

    I would add that it is a different argument for my brothers and sisters who have served. We may not agree regarding everything, but we are indeed different from most of the nation. I may not agree with you or with J-Mac, but I do know and acknowledge that we have a common bond and I will forever respect that.

    I can respect that. And I do not disagree that most people that have never put on this nations uniform have any idea what it means to do so. But, what we are talking about here is the situation we find ourselves in now. Hell, I can even respect that those who support a more non interventionist want to step back because they mistakenly believe that if we detach from our role in the world for the past 100 plus years was wrong. But nature abhors a vacuum, and would fill it with less attractive alternatives. If we are to regain our momentum as the nation that sets the standard, then we must remain vigilant, and continue this role. That doesn't mean we can't bill those who would take advantage of that truism.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    That's awesome, Awesome! When do you ship over?
    What unit did you serve in?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    We almost certainly have a force if not within a day, then no further than about 3 days from there, and a force more than large enough to get the job done(Carrier Task Force).
    Good thing we haven't given into the wishes of some and withdrawn all our forces back to our own borders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Strait of Hormuz standoff: Iran films US aircraft carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The naivete and weakness inherent in a Paul Presidency would be ruthlessly exploited by the nation's enemies and America's allies would be disheartened. Geopolitically, a Ron Paul Presidency would be highly destabilizing and the destablization that would result from it would make conflicts more likely not less likely. The interests of the United States and its allies would be badly damaged.
    While I understand your concerns, I have no doubt that Congress would approve a declaration of war in that situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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