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Thread: Sopa

  1. #51
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    Re: Sopa

    Once big business (software specifically) stops stealing from the open source community, I will start supporting the idea that we are really stealing from them.

    For reference: GNU GPL

    Big business consistently uses these sources as their backbone logic and claims their products are somehow NOT derivative products.

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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    Once big business (software specifically) stops stealing from the open source community, I will start supporting the idea that we are really stealing from them.

    For reference: GNU GPL

    Big business consistently uses these sources as their backbone logic and claims their products are somehow NOT derivative products.
    Or even claims the open-source community is stealing from them.

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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by david52875 View Post
    Or even claims the open-source community is stealing from them.
    Fair enough.... BUT I cannot count the times I was asked to do a complete rewrite of already existing code, based completely off of existing code as a framework, to circumvent GNU GPL. Solely for the ability for the entity I work for to legally argue in court that it was original material.

    Confusion: are we in agreement on this? - to David
    Last edited by Swit; 01-16-12 at 04:54 AM. Reason: confusion

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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    Fair enough.... BUT I cannot count the times I was asked to do a complete rewrite of already existing code, based completely off of existing code as a framework, to circumvent GNU GPL. Solely for the ability for the entity I work for to legally argue in court that it was original material.

    Confusion: are we in agreement on this? - to David
    Yes we are.

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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by david52875 View Post
    Yes we are.
    OK, it appears I initially misunderstood what you were saying.... mea culpa.

  6. #56
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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Sorry, there is no way to debate vague things like this. Whatever it is they are doing, you would legally be able to also.
    Fine a simple example.
    Disney practically took a **** ton of their stories from the Brothers Grim.
    They added their own twist, but largely the material is not original.

    Why should they be able to retain a lengthy IP when they didn't create the original story?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Do you see what I mean? Harry Guerrilla has a knack for going into the absurd when it comes to piracy debates. If we were to follow his "logic" there would be no right to property at all. After all, if you didn't invent the grass, the trees and dirt on your land, how can you claim that any of it is legally yours?
    Then by all means, take a wag at my example.
    Tell me how Disney, who did "stole" from the Brothers Grim, is owed a lengthy IP right?

    For your straw man, I'm not completely against IP, I'm against automatic IP and IP length of ownership.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 01-16-12 at 08:48 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then by all means, take a wag at my example.
    Tell me how Disney, who did "stole" from the Brothers Grim, is owed a lengthy IP right?
    This is why you REALLY shouldn't get involved in discussions about IP - The brothers Grimm didn't create the fairy tales in their books. They COLLECTED local folklore and put it in their books. That shows the stories weren't the intellectual property OF the Grimms to begin with and you'd have a hard time proving who they actually belonged to. What the brothers Grimm and their descendents have the rights to are the product created by the Grimms ie. I can't simply grab their books, change the book cover and print it as my own works or use it for personal gain. I can't even disseminate their works because the copyright of their product is still owned by whatever publisher bought the rights to their books. Similarly, Disney doesn't OWN the rights to the stories, they own the rights to the SCRIPT based on the same folklore used by the Grimms. Usage of that script in any of its forms ie the words, videos, soundtrack etc, is a violation of the PRODUCT created by Disney which is discernibly distinct from that in the Grimms work not only in means of production by finished product.

    For your straw man, I'm not completely against IP, I'm against automatic IP and IP length of ownership.
    It's not a strawman. It's the "logical" progression of your argument.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 01-16-12 at 10:59 AM.
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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is why you REALLY shouldn't get involved in discussions about IP - The brothers Grimm didn't create the fairy tales in their books. They COLLECTED local folklore and put it in their books. That shows the stories weren't the intellectual property OF the Grimms to begin with and you'd have a hard time proving who they actually belonged to. What the brothers Grimm and their descendents have the rights to are the product created by the Grimms ie. I can't simply grab their books, change the book cover and print it as my own works or use it for personal gain. I can't even disseminate their works because the copyright of their product is still owned by whatever publisher bought the rights to their books. Similarly, Disney doesn't OWN the rights to the stories, they own the rights to the SCRIPT based on the same folklore used by the Grimms. Usage of that script in any of its forms ie the words, videos, soundtrack etc, is a violation of the PRODUCT created by Disney which is discernibly distinct from that in the Grimms work not only in means of production by finished product.



    It's not a strawman. It's the "logical" progression of your argument.
    This isn't entirely accurate. Copy-written works and intellectual property terms are not perpetual. After a proscribed amount of time these materials enter the public domain and can be used by anyone without fear of legal recourse. This is a good concise listing of some of those time limits: link. It should also be noted that in rare circumstances firms can lose the ability to enforce IP protections, specifically trademarks. link

    However regarding the scope of what we are talking about (music, video, software, etc...) this point is basically immaterial as these works do not enter the public domain until well into the future and simply do not apply to the conversation at hand. Well to be honest I brought it up because works by the Brother's Grimm are most definitely in the Public Domain, but I understand it was just being used as an example and in general your point stands.

    It should be noted however that in regard to the music industry (and I am sure it applies numerous other industries as well). They attempt to extend these timelines by re-releasing already produced items and claiming they are somehow new products (i.e. Best of albums, compilations, Collector's Editions, etc...). In short, they circumvent current CR / IP terms lengths by the exact same mechanism that they attempt to prosecute "violators" of CR / IP protections.

    In other words. if they (CR / IP holders) create the "compilation" and distribute it, it is a new product and the CR / IP of the works contained therein can get extended, However if a 3rd party does the same thing they claim that it is undifferentiated from the original work and therefore the same product. By this mechanism, they can attempt to retain CR / IP rights indefinitely which was never intended by current law.

    This dichotomy is readily present when one considers the Napster issue in contrast with the (relatively recent) writer's strike. The RIAA argued that a mere change of encoding and / or transmission (basically that of wav to mp3 via Internet) was not significantly different enough to qualify as a new product as the end result was indistinguishable (generally) from the originally protected works and they won. Then during the writer's strike Media organizations attempted to block royalties from writer's for content they created because somehow the content was different now that it was reencoded from it's original format and transmitted via internet rather than airwaves. (for all intents and purposes the exact argument that Napster was using to try and justify its actions).

  10. #60
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    Re: Sopa

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is why you REALLY shouldn't get involved in discussions about IP - The brothers Grimm didn't create the fairy tales in their books. They COLLECTED local folklore and put it in their books. That shows the stories weren't the intellectual property OF the Grimms to begin with and you'd have a hard time proving who they actually belonged to. What the brothers Grimm and their descendents have the rights to are the product created by the Grimms ie. I can't simply grab their books, change the book cover and print it as my own works or use it for personal gain. I can't even disseminate their works because the copyright of their product is still owned by whatever publisher bought the rights to their books. Similarly, Disney doesn't OWN the rights to the stories, they own the rights to the SCRIPT based on the same folklore used by the Grimms. Usage of that script in any of its forms ie the words, videos, soundtrack etc, is a violation of the PRODUCT created by Disney which is discernibly distinct from that in the Grimms work not only in means of production by finished product.
    Actually they, like Disney, took the folklore and added their own spin to it.
    So yes, they did take it from the Brothers Grim among other story writers and added their own spin to it.

    None the less, Disney does own the rights to the modified versions of the stories.
    They can use whatever they want from their stories because they're out of copy protection.

    Why should they own lengthy copy protections for works they borrowed heavily from others to create?
    You haven't answered the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    It's not a strawman. It's the "logical" progression of your argument.
    It's totally a straw man, because I have not advocated such a position.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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