• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

House Republicans Cave on Payroll Tax Cuts Extension

Tettsuo said:
So no president can be praised for much of anything that's accomplished by the government? I'm sure you're also including Reagan in your viewpoint, yes? Would you take the same stance with Obama?

If your point is to only make it known that the government isn't a dictatorship, I agree. No president can act alone without the government as a whole working together. I'm not disputing that at all.
Click to expand...
Absolutely my point. Reagan didnt pass legislation...congress did. Reagan signed it. Bush...Clinton...Bush...and Obama. Are they responsible for their policy initaitves? Absolutely. However you have to be beyond a mindless myopic partisan hack to believe that Bill Clinton set out to reform welfare and balance the budget. He simply had the good sense to put up a public impression of being opposed to said legislation, then signed it, and takes credit for it.

Bush is responsible for the decision to go to Iraq. Congress is responsible for passing the War Powers act and for refusing to adequately fund the war. Bush is also responsible for signing the budgets and increased deficits. Congress is responsible for every budget legislation they have passed (and in recent years, they are responsible for FAILING to so much as pass a budget). Everyone shares the love/blame. Thats how the government is MANDATED to work.
 
Gill said:
The article is correct, YOU are wrong.

Note what it says:

It was during the Clinton Administration according to the article. It does NOT say that Clinton balanced the budget as you claim.
Click to expand...

Ahh, I see. Reagan didn't end the Cold War, it just ended during his administration. Obama didn't ruin the economy, it as just ruined during his administration. Clintion didn't balance the budget, it's was just balanced during his administration. Gotcha.

So why all the hate for Obama? It's not like he's doing anything. Crap is just happening during his administration according to you. No reason to blame him right?

BTW from the article itself...
The Clinton years showed the effects of a large tax increase that Clinton pushed through in his first year, and that Republicans incorrectly claim is the "largest tax increase in history." It fell almost exclusively on upper-income taxpayers. Clinton’s fiscal 1994 budget also contained some spending restraints.
Click to expand...

Did you read the article at all?
 
VanceMack said:
Absolutely my point. Reagan didnt pass legislation...congress did. Reagan signed it. Bush...Clinton...Bush...and Obama. Are they responsible for their policy initaitves? Absolutely. However you have to be beyond a mindless myopic partisan hack to believe that Bill Clinton set out to reform welfare and balance the budget. He simply had the good sense to put up a public impression of being opposed to said legislation, then signed it, and takes credit for it.

Bush is responsible for the decision to go to Iraq. Congress is responsible for passing the War Powers act and for refusing to adequately fund the war. Bush is also responsible for signing the budgets and increased deficits. Congress is responsible for every budget legislation they have passed (and in recent years, they are responsible for FAILING to so much as pass a budget). Everyone shares the love/blame. Thats how the government is MANDATED to work.
Click to expand...
I cannot dispute the truth of the above. But, it is rather common for the president to accept the praise for the good and suffer the slings and arrow for the bad that occurs when in office.
 
Tettsuo said:
I cannot dispute the truth of the above. But, it is rather common for the president to accept the praise for the good and suffer the slings and arrow for the bad that occurs when in office.
Click to expand...
No question. And they SHOULD...thats what they are elected to do...lead. Effective leaders work with congress...both parties...for the good of the country. Clinton was an effective leader. I dont know how he would have fared with the congress we have had for the last decade...
 
Tettsuo said:
Ahh, I see. Reagan didn't end the Cold War, it just ended during his administration. Obama didn't ruin the economy, it as just ruined during his administration. Clintion didn't balance the budget, it's was just balanced during his administration. Gotcha.

So why all the hate for Obama? It's not like he's doing anything. Crap is just happening during his administration according to you. No reason to blame him right?

BTW from the article itself...


Did you read the article at all?
Click to expand...

Yes, I read it which is how I so easily proved you wrong.
 
VanceMack said:
Absolutely my point. Reagan didnt pass legislation...congress did. Reagan signed it. Bush...Clinton...Bush...and Obama. Are they responsible for their policy initaitves? Absolutely. However you have to be beyond a mindless myopic partisan hack to believe that Bill Clinton set out to reform welfare and balance the budget. He simply had the good sense to put up a public impression of being opposed to said legislation, then signed it, and takes credit for it.

Bush is responsible for the decision to go to Iraq. Congress is responsible for passing the War Powers act and for refusing to adequately fund the war. Bush is also responsible for signing the budgets and increased deficits. Congress is responsible for every budget legislation they have passed (and in recent years, they are responsible for FAILING to so much as pass a budget). Everyone shares the love/blame. Thats how the government is MANDATED to work.
Click to expand...

No offense, but how old are you? Apparently not old enough to remember Clinton specifically running on a platform of welfare reform!
 
Samhain said:
Clinton Puzzle - How to Delay Welfare Reform Yet Seem to Pursue It - NYTimes.com

And after a year in office, he still never offered a welfare reform plan, so just another example of candidate vs elected official.
Click to expand...

You mean he never authored a bill and submitted it to Congress? I would hope not, given that that power is restricted to Congress. The point of the article was that Clinton wanted to take up Health Care reform *first* -- not that he didn't intend to take up welfare reform. As the article notes, "Mr. Clinton's pledge to impose strict work requirements on welfare recipients was one of his most popular campaign promises."
 
AdamT said:
You mean he never authored a bill and submitted it to Congress? I would hope not, given that that power is restricted to Congress. The point of the article was that Clinton wanted to take up Health Care reform *first* -- not that he didn't intend to take up welfare reform. As the article notes, "Mr. Clinton's pledge to impose strict work requirements on welfare recipients was one of his most popular campaign promises."
Click to expand...

And the next sentence explains it all : "But after almost a year in office, he has still not spelled out the details or developed a plan."

Obviously the legislature writes the bills( I've seen the after school special, thanks ), but the President pushes the agenda. And just like our current President, both pushed Health Insurance reform out of the gate with his majority in Congress rather than his campaign promises( "three letter word. j-o-b-s", yes, I know that was Biden, but the economy was the President's campaign ).
 
AdamT said:
No offense, but how old are you? Apparently not old enough to remember Clinton specifically running on a platform of welfare reform!
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter what he "ran on". Fact is that with a Democrat House and Senate his first two years, he got nothing done. It wasn't until the GOP took over in Congress, and then late in 1995, when it got done. Clinton was pulled kicking and screaming to the table.

Welfare Reform Timeline

I am quite old enough to remember, btw ;)
 
AdamT said:
No offense, but how old are you? Apparently not old enough to remember Clinton specifically running on a platform of welfare reform!
Click to expand...
Nothing a myopic partisan hack can ever say to me will insult me...I assure you. People 'run' on all sorts of things...btu what do they DO? Hell Obama ran on a platform of open government, closing GITMO, and ensuring constitutional protections for terrorists. How did THAT work out? Bush 1 said no new taxes...go aherad...read his lips...that didnt hold sway either. Clinton fought the welfare reforms...publicly. But he signed them nontheless with a promise to fix them after he signed them, just like he signed DADT and DOMA. Republicans passed the Welfare reform act.

A better question might be how old are YOU? Im guessing you are somewhere early to mid 20's and read all the partisan crap you need to to formulate your opinions.
 
Tettsuo said:
I cannot dispute the truth of the above. But, it is rather common for the president to accept the praise for the good and suffer the slings and arrow for the bad that occurs when in office.
Click to expand...

VanceMack said:
No question. And they SHOULD...thats what they are elected to do...lead. Effective leaders work with congress...both parties...for the good of the country. Clinton was an effective leader. I dont know how he would have fared with the congress we have had for the last decade...
Click to expand...

If Clinton had only kept his dick in his pants, or chosen a better mistress, he would have been near brilliant as President ... almost Reaganesque. :)

In any case, both those gentlemen deserve huge credit for working with a Congress from the opposing party, and getting things done that improved the Country, such that they both left things much better than they found them. Both are models of Presidential leadership.

Not the two assclowns since.
 
VanceMack said:
HAH!!! I just recognized why that was so confusing. That was a crossing of terms faux pas of EPIC failure proportions...DEBT CEILING...not salary cap. Crossed a verbal discussion on sports with a typed discussion on budget. My bad.
Click to expand...

No problem.
 
In the tit-for-tat Republicans got some of the reckless slop cleaned up and they got their foot in the door on the pipeline. Actually, it ended a draw to be fought out again after the holidays.
 
Samhain said:
And the next sentence explains it all : "But after almost a year in office, he has still not spelled out the details or developed a plan."

Obviously the legislature writes the bills( I've seen the after school special, thanks ), but the President pushes the agenda. And just like our current President, both pushed Health Insurance reform out of the gate with his majority in Congress rather than his campaign promises( "three letter word. j-o-b-s", yes, I know that was Biden, but the economy was the President's campaign ).
Click to expand...

As someone noted above, he did in fact sign welfare reform into law, as promised. As far as I know he didn't promise to do it in year one of his presidency.
 
misterman said:
Clinton actually did reform welfare too.

Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...
He ran on it...but openly opposed the version passed by the GOP congress even though he signed it. He vowed to go back and 'fix' it...never happened. He was in many ways a populist. Not unlike the presence and support of the Kyoto Protocol...which he never so much as submitted for passage.

Saying you are for something...running on something is far different from doing it.
 
VanceMack said:
He ran on it...but openly opposed the version passed by the GOP congress even though he signed it. He vowed to go back and 'fix' it...never happened. He was in many ways a populist. Not unlike the presence and support of the Kyoto Protocol...which he never so much as submitted for passage.

Saying you are for something...running on something is far different from doing it.
Click to expand...

So now you're complaining that he signed a Republican welfare reform bill, after running on welfare reform?

Give it up.
 
Tettsuo said:
Ahh, I see. Reagan didn't end the Cold War, it just ended during his administration. Obama didn't ruin the economy, it as just ruined during his administration. Clintion didn't balance the budget, it's was just balanced during his administration. Gotcha.

So why all the hate for Obama? It's not like he's doing anything. Crap is just happening during his administration according to you. No reason to blame him right?
Click to expand...

That's pretty accurate, actually, but not totally. The Soviet Union didn't fall until 1991, when Bush I was in office, but the fall started in the '80s, when Reagan was president.

Which doesn't mean that either Reagan or Bush brought down the Soviets.

The current mess started in '07, when Bush II was in office.

Which, doesn't mean that the mess was the fault of Bush II, or of Obama.

The budget balanced/almost balanced (depending on who you believe) while Clinton was president, which doesn't mean that Clinton balanced it.

Sometimes, we ascribe a lot more power to the executive branch than it actually has.
 
Dittohead not! said:
That's pretty accurate, actually, but not totally. The Soviet Union didn't fall until 1991, when Bush I was in office, but the fall started in the '80s, when Reagan was president.

Which doesn't mean that either Reagan or Bush brought down the Soviets.

The current mess started in '07, when Bush II was in office.

Which, doesn't mean that the mess was the fault of Bush II, or of Obama.

The budget balanced/almost balanced (depending on who you believe) while Clinton was president, which doesn't mean that Clinton balanced it.

Sometimes, we ascribe a lot more power to the executive branch than it actually has.
Click to expand...

It was balanced to the point where we were beginning to pay back our debt, but let's not give Clinton all the credit. It also took a Republican congress to force Clinton to do it. It was essentially part of Newt's Contract with America. Clinton did sign off on it though. Like I have always said, it takes two to tango, and back in those days, the 2 parties were willing to dance with each other. Today, they would shoot each other if they got the chance. LOL.
 
Dittohead not! said:
The current mess started in '07, when Bush II was in office.

Which, doesn't mean that the mess was the fault of Bush II, or of Obama.
Click to expand...

You are right on both counts. Hmmm, wonder who took control of both houses of Congress in 2006 ??
 
Gill said:
You are right on both counts. Hmmm, wonder who took control of both houses of Congress in 2006 ??
Click to expand...

And you fail to understand the point


The housing crisis hit in 2007, but that does not mean it hit because of the democratic congress and senate. The housing bubble did not magically appear in 2007 only to burst in 2007. It took years to build up, when the bubble was going to burst could have come sooner or later, but it was going to burst at some time no matter who was in power
 
Last edited:
Lord Tammerlain said:
And you fail to understand the point


The housing crisis hit in 2007, but that does not mean it hit because of the democratic congress and senate. The housing bubble did not magically appear in 2007 only to burst in 2007. It took years to build up, when the bubble was going to burst could have come sooner or later, but it was going to burst at some time no matter who was in power
Click to expand...

The original comment that the "current mess" wasn't started until 2007 was not limited to the housing bubble.

But you're right. Barney Frank and friends had been protecting Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from more oversight for many years.
 
Gill said:
The original comment that the "current mess" wasn't started until 2007 was not limited to the housing bubble.

But you're right. Barney Frank and friends had been protecting Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from more oversight for many years.
Click to expand...

All Hail Barney Frank


More powerfull then a republican congress, senate and President

More powerfull then the trillion dollar financial industry

Barney Frank a true superman
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom